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	<title>Comments on: Relax, He Wants You to Maw Down and Wear Cheap Chonies</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/</link>
	<description>2007-2010</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-123091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy (TRiG)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 17:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-123091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure that &lt;a href=&quot;http://gretachristina.typepad.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Greta Christina&lt;/a&gt; once wrote an excellent little essay about women shaving their genitals, but I can&#039;t find it now. (Hers is the only feminist blog I read every post of. I pop by here and Shakesville, but I always read Greta.)

TRiG.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure that <a href="http://gretachristina.typepad.com/" rel="nofollow">Greta Christina</a> once wrote an excellent little essay about women shaving their genitals, but I can&#8217;t find it now. (Hers is the only feminist blog I read every post of. I pop by here and Shakesville, but I always read Greta.)</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: hepfat</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-122060</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hepfat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-122060</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just did a reread over this post, and I think the article is less about giving permission and more a &quot;just for your information&quot; type thing.  I spent a really, really long time trying to do everything within my power to make myself more attractive to men, and it took a while for me to realize that there are plenty of men out there who don&#039;t require that I mow down my pubes for them.  Men have just as much right to date who they find attractive as women do, and if all women are conforming to this Brazillian wax, lacy underthings paradigm, men have to conform their tastes to it too, which isn&#039;t really fair for either party.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just did a reread over this post, and I think the article is less about giving permission and more a &#8220;just for your information&#8221; type thing.  I spent a really, really long time trying to do everything within my power to make myself more attractive to men, and it took a while for me to realize that there are plenty of men out there who don&#8217;t require that I mow down my pubes for them.  Men have just as much right to date who they find attractive as women do, and if all women are conforming to this Brazillian wax, lacy underthings paradigm, men have to conform their tastes to it too, which isn&#8217;t really fair for either party.</p>
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		<title>By: snarkysmachine</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-122005</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[snarkysmachine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-122005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ms.e: That was brilliant!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms.e: That was brilliant!</p>
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		<title>By: Starling</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-122003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Starling]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:34:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-122003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ms.e:
That was just so well put.  It&#039;s always a joy to find oneself dating (hanging out with, otherwise associating with) a guy who Gets It, but it doesn&#039;t happen all that much, so I find myself engaged in consciousness-raising.  Like, lots.  And there are tons of decent, sweet, thoughtful men who like women but grew up in the same patriarchy that the crappy men did, and breathed the same air, and are still tripping over the same expectations and unexamined beliefs.

I spent a solid two hours having this sort of discussion with my brother last night.  (Holiday time is debate time!  At least chez Starling.)  It is exhausting.  On the other hand, I gave the guy I&#039;m dating the url for the Schrödinger&#039;s Rapist essay a few weeks back, and he read it and said, &quot;Yeah, of course.&quot;  I nearly wept on his shoulder in gratitude that I didn&#039;t have to hold his hand and walk him through it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms.e:<br />
That was just so well put.  It&#8217;s always a joy to find oneself dating (hanging out with, otherwise associating with) a guy who Gets It, but it doesn&#8217;t happen all that much, so I find myself engaged in consciousness-raising.  Like, lots.  And there are tons of decent, sweet, thoughtful men who like women but grew up in the same patriarchy that the crappy men did, and breathed the same air, and are still tripping over the same expectations and unexamined beliefs.</p>
<p>I spent a solid two hours having this sort of discussion with my brother last night.  (Holiday time is debate time!  At least chez Starling.)  It is exhausting.  On the other hand, I gave the guy I&#8217;m dating the url for the Schrödinger&#8217;s Rapist essay a few weeks back, and he read it and said, &#8220;Yeah, of course.&#8221;  I nearly wept on his shoulder in gratitude that I didn&#8217;t have to hold his hand and walk him through it.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca V.</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-121989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rebecca V.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-121989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does anyone else think Maw-Maw and the Chonies would be a great name for a band?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone else think Maw-Maw and the Chonies would be a great name for a band?</p>
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		<title>By: Ms.e</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-121919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ms.e]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-121919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This article is the perfect place for me to bring up the Jack Black mammogram ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U_JsaCCxwk, which I&#039;ve been trying to cope with for the last week or so. Its popped up all over hulu and on the one hand I think it falls into the &quot;doing a good thing&quot; category, on the other hand the end message is, &quot;bros, book your lady, mom, or sister an appointment with the mammogram&quot;, which to me is a whole creepy reminder that even in the progressive G8 countries women&#039;s health was controlled by men for longer than our right to vote was. It makes me feel frustrated that while theoretically women are equals, we haven&#039;t come close to leaving behind the legacy of a system that gave men the right to do things like declare their wives insane, or deny them medical treatment, or own their reproduction, as any woman who has had a doctor not take her symptoms seriously or had her health insurance not cover her lady exams and prescriptions can attest to.

I mean, I want to bless this man for trying in his own imbecilic way to promote a non standard beauty ideal, given how many men are out there posting shit like, &quot;I hate this celebrity because she&#039;s so fake or trying to hard or gained 2 pounds and now her anorexia isn&#039;t as pronouced as I like&quot; or calling women sluts, so at least he&#039;s trying to say the right things.  But yet as someone said up comment, this is really about, &quot;you can stop being such a fusspot about beauty if you are naturally beautiful, and so whorish in your seductions if you figure out how to be sexy and yet non predatory, and chill the fuck out with being mental, by meeting my paradoxical requirement that you be confident but not overpowering, self sufficient but not autonomous, because that stuff totally stresses me out.&quot;

Recently I had a great chat with one of my besties and her fiance, about the very different experiences and assumptions that men and women have about safety during travel. We were talking about traveling in couples and how women get much less easy much faster, and how even though he&#039;s a generally very feminist guy, and men I travel with tend to be as well, he found himself being annoyed by how stressed she was in certain areas, and they had one or two minor fights about it. As we were sitting there talking about it, when it came up because I was telling a story about the exact same issue between myself and an ex in foreign lands you could see the lightbulb dawning for him, that this issue wasn&#039;t just about her as a nervous personality restricting his travel, but rather about how all women have to engage in a complex juggling act between range of movement and comfort level as they travel.  

I bring it up because at least the author of this stupid article is the sort of guy I&#039;d be hopeful about being able to engage in dialogue provided he had to sit with a group made up of my wildly varied and individually funny, beautiful, friendly clever female friends and really listen to us talk about oppression.  I do have to believe that this article sort of reads like, &quot;I&#039;m trying to get how to be good to a woman, and make her feel safe and secure...and isn&#039;t that done by reassuring her she has my permission to be herself ?&quot; I don&#039;t think he&#039;s inherently hateful of women- it reads like he&#039;s nearly located the enemy of false expectations and pressure, but hasn&#039;t made it all the way there to, &quot;Fake women exist because patriarchy has created them to please me, and keep me and my power and wealth unchallenged&quot;, he&#039;s only got as far as, &quot;wow! Lots of things in the media are unreal! But you can STILL PLEASE ME, even if you aren&#039;t laboring every minute to be perfect, because I like women.&quot; 

This issue has been running through my head a lot lately, about how to gracefully challenge guys who are sweet or well intentioned but indoctrinated, how to say to someone, &quot;look sometimes you say bad things which are hurtful to women, even as you mean well&quot;, without that then shutting down the conversation in that dead-end white man guilt avenue. I struggle with that kind of issue on a daily basis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is the perfect place for me to bring up the Jack Black mammogram ad: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U_JsaCCxwk" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U_JsaCCxwk</a>, which I&#8217;ve been trying to cope with for the last week or so. Its popped up all over hulu and on the one hand I think it falls into the &#8220;doing a good thing&#8221; category, on the other hand the end message is, &#8220;bros, book your lady, mom, or sister an appointment with the mammogram&#8221;, which to me is a whole creepy reminder that even in the progressive G8 countries women&#8217;s health was controlled by men for longer than our right to vote was. It makes me feel frustrated that while theoretically women are equals, we haven&#8217;t come close to leaving behind the legacy of a system that gave men the right to do things like declare their wives insane, or deny them medical treatment, or own their reproduction, as any woman who has had a doctor not take her symptoms seriously or had her health insurance not cover her lady exams and prescriptions can attest to.</p>
<p>I mean, I want to bless this man for trying in his own imbecilic way to promote a non standard beauty ideal, given how many men are out there posting shit like, &#8220;I hate this celebrity because she&#8217;s so fake or trying to hard or gained 2 pounds and now her anorexia isn&#8217;t as pronouced as I like&#8221; or calling women sluts, so at least he&#8217;s trying to say the right things.  But yet as someone said up comment, this is really about, &#8220;you can stop being such a fusspot about beauty if you are naturally beautiful, and so whorish in your seductions if you figure out how to be sexy and yet non predatory, and chill the fuck out with being mental, by meeting my paradoxical requirement that you be confident but not overpowering, self sufficient but not autonomous, because that stuff totally stresses me out.&#8221;</p>
<p>Recently I had a great chat with one of my besties and her fiance, about the very different experiences and assumptions that men and women have about safety during travel. We were talking about traveling in couples and how women get much less easy much faster, and how even though he&#8217;s a generally very feminist guy, and men I travel with tend to be as well, he found himself being annoyed by how stressed she was in certain areas, and they had one or two minor fights about it. As we were sitting there talking about it, when it came up because I was telling a story about the exact same issue between myself and an ex in foreign lands you could see the lightbulb dawning for him, that this issue wasn&#8217;t just about her as a nervous personality restricting his travel, but rather about how all women have to engage in a complex juggling act between range of movement and comfort level as they travel.  </p>
<p>I bring it up because at least the author of this stupid article is the sort of guy I&#8217;d be hopeful about being able to engage in dialogue provided he had to sit with a group made up of my wildly varied and individually funny, beautiful, friendly clever female friends and really listen to us talk about oppression.  I do have to believe that this article sort of reads like, &#8220;I&#8217;m trying to get how to be good to a woman, and make her feel safe and secure&#8230;and isn&#8217;t that done by reassuring her she has my permission to be herself ?&#8221; I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s inherently hateful of women- it reads like he&#8217;s nearly located the enemy of false expectations and pressure, but hasn&#8217;t made it all the way there to, &#8220;Fake women exist because patriarchy has created them to please me, and keep me and my power and wealth unchallenged&#8221;, he&#8217;s only got as far as, &#8220;wow! Lots of things in the media are unreal! But you can STILL PLEASE ME, even if you aren&#8217;t laboring every minute to be perfect, because I like women.&#8221; </p>
<p>This issue has been running through my head a lot lately, about how to gracefully challenge guys who are sweet or well intentioned but indoctrinated, how to say to someone, &#8220;look sometimes you say bad things which are hurtful to women, even as you mean well&#8221;, without that then shutting down the conversation in that dead-end white man guilt avenue. I struggle with that kind of issue on a daily basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Cath the Canberra Cook</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-121912</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cath the Canberra Cook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-121912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Meg, I&#039;m an Aussie (duh) and I wear Bonds undies most of the time, which I mostly buy from Big W. I have 16s &amp; 18s in bright blue, and black, and purple, and several other colours. All are cotton &amp; lycra blends and hipster/bikini style. I like the boy leg bikini briefs best. I&#039;m not sure how large they go, sorry. I&#039;m sure I&#039;ve seen 20, and I find that a size down from my trouser size works best, so that would get to a 22.

Back on topic, this kind of article turns up regularly. I see it as a slightly poignant fail. He&#039;s just so close to getting it, and then he fails. You are fine just as you are... oh, lovely ... but only because I say so - damn, missed!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meg, I&#8217;m an Aussie (duh) and I wear Bonds undies most of the time, which I mostly buy from Big W. I have 16s &amp; 18s in bright blue, and black, and purple, and several other colours. All are cotton &amp; lycra blends and hipster/bikini style. I like the boy leg bikini briefs best. I&#8217;m not sure how large they go, sorry. I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ve seen 20, and I find that a size down from my trouser size works best, so that would get to a 22.</p>
<p>Back on topic, this kind of article turns up regularly. I see it as a slightly poignant fail. He&#8217;s just so close to getting it, and then he fails. You are fine just as you are&#8230; oh, lovely &#8230; but only because I say so &#8211; damn, missed!</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel (the other one)</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-121854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rachel (the other one)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-121854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[::Brainstorming ways to use &quot;frothing at the crotch&quot; as much as possible in every day conversation::]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>::Brainstorming ways to use &#8220;frothing at the crotch&#8221; as much as possible in every day conversation::</p>
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		<title>By: snarkysmachine</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-121805</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[snarkysmachine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-121805</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;This article reminds me that it’s great to be a Fat, Vegan, Lesbian. Fuck permission. *toasts to not having to give a shit about what men think around 70% of the time*&lt;/i&gt;

Ha.

&lt;i&gt;My neighbor heard that the clitoris and penis were homologous structures, and for years thought that women urinated through their clitoris.&lt;/i&gt;

I learned this tidbit from &lt;i&gt;Visionquest&lt;/i&gt;! Thank you, Matthew Modine!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This article reminds me that it’s great to be a Fat, Vegan, Lesbian. Fuck permission. *toasts to not having to give a shit about what men think around 70% of the time*</i></p>
<p>Ha.</p>
<p><i>My neighbor heard that the clitoris and penis were homologous structures, and for years thought that women urinated through their clitoris.</i></p>
<p>I learned this tidbit from <i>Visionquest</i>! Thank you, Matthew Modine!</p>
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		<title>By: jerriselaina</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/11/18/relax-he-wants-you-to-maw-down-and-wear-cheap-chonies/#comment-121791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jerriselaina]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3931#comment-121791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This article reminds me that it&#039;s great to be a Fat, Vegan, Lesbian. Fuck permission.
 *toasts to not having to give a shit about what men think around 70% of the time*]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article reminds me that it&#8217;s great to be a Fat, Vegan, Lesbian. Fuck permission.<br />
 *toasts to not having to give a shit about what men think around 70% of the time*</p>
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