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	<title>Comments on: They&#8217;ll kick you, then they beat you / Then they&#8217;ll tell you it&#8217;s fair</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/</link>
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		<title>By: cindy</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101558</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cindy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve waited a while to comment on this thread.

First, the OP is astute, as always. Success and wealth didn&#039;t insulate Michael Jackson from self-loathing. What a power lesson this is to people who struggle with weight.

Secondly, as a reporter for a daily newspaper, I thought I might leaven some of the critique of how MJ&#039;s life and death have been handled with my own observations.

The coverage by reputable media outlets has been fair, thorough and sound. (CNN, FOX, MSNBC &amp; AP are the outlets I have been studying). The coverage has been neither euphemistic nor canonizing. 

For those who think the media have been negligent for not labeling MJ a rapist, well, you simply don&#039;t understand libel law. MJ was never accused, indicted or convicted of rape. Penal codes have distinct definitions of criminal sexual misconduct, and MJ was suspected of sexual molestation or some form of sexual indecency with a minor. We all have our own definitions of what constitutes rape. The law, though, defines rape differently, and the definition can differ from state to state. 

If any media outlets were to label MJ anything other than accused/charged with specific criminal acts, they would rightfully be vulnerable to libel and defamation suits. 

This reality often makes media consumers irate, but media must conform to law and institutional ethics. I think the coverage of his death has been fair, accurate and appropriate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve waited a while to comment on this thread.</p>
<p>First, the OP is astute, as always. Success and wealth didn&#8217;t insulate Michael Jackson from self-loathing. What a power lesson this is to people who struggle with weight.</p>
<p>Secondly, as a reporter for a daily newspaper, I thought I might leaven some of the critique of how MJ&#8217;s life and death have been handled with my own observations.</p>
<p>The coverage by reputable media outlets has been fair, thorough and sound. (CNN, FOX, MSNBC &amp; AP are the outlets I have been studying). The coverage has been neither euphemistic nor canonizing. </p>
<p>For those who think the media have been negligent for not labeling MJ a rapist, well, you simply don&#8217;t understand libel law. MJ was never accused, indicted or convicted of rape. Penal codes have distinct definitions of criminal sexual misconduct, and MJ was suspected of sexual molestation or some form of sexual indecency with a minor. We all have our own definitions of what constitutes rape. The law, though, defines rape differently, and the definition can differ from state to state. </p>
<p>If any media outlets were to label MJ anything other than accused/charged with specific criminal acts, they would rightfully be vulnerable to libel and defamation suits. </p>
<p>This reality often makes media consumers irate, but media must conform to law and institutional ethics. I think the coverage of his death has been fair, accurate and appropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101406</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carolyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 05:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Caitlin  - thank you for your comment and yes, the subsequent posting helped me figure out my touchyness and I did learn a lot from this thread]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Caitlin  &#8211; thank you for your comment and yes, the subsequent posting helped me figure out my touchyness and I did learn a lot from this thread</p>
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		<title>By: Caitlin</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101307</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caitlin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think this has all been settled now, but I just wanted to say: Carolyn, I&#039;m really sorry about what happened to you. I can see where you&#039;re coming from; I hope you can see why I reacted how I did to your comments to Jenn. (And I wish none of this had happened to any of us, or anyone).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this has all been settled now, but I just wanted to say: Carolyn, I&#8217;m really sorry about what happened to you. I can see where you&#8217;re coming from; I hope you can see why I reacted how I did to your comments to Jenn. (And I wish none of this had happened to any of us, or anyone).</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101194</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nancy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101194</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i wanted to chip in, i understand him changing his skin white. he had the same skin disease that my dad has. and my dad is white. idk. he does make me think about body hate and stuff alot, too though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i wanted to chip in, i understand him changing his skin white. he had the same skin disease that my dad has. and my dad is white. idk. he does make me think about body hate and stuff alot, too though.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Harding</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101082</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kate Harding]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Ya’ll can hate me for that, but I’d rather be the person who is on the victim’s side no matter what. &lt;/i&gt;

I really don&#039;t think anyone around here would hate you for that.

The problem with the allegations against MJ is that none of us have seen real evidence one way or another, and the very same thing that makes his acquittal suspicious also calls the accusations into question. (Note that I would not have a bad word to say about the children in question either way, but their parents&#039; motives may not be entirely clear.) Money and power can allow you to buy your way out of even the most serious criminal charges, but they can also make you a target for same. In at least one case, it certainly sounds like the victim&#039;s father was thinking a lot more about how he could benefit than about his child&#039;s welfare -- yet in all too many cases, children aren&#039;t believed when they speak of sexual abuse, so one doesn&#039;t want to doubt them. The fact is, in the specific case of Michael Jackson, we will most likely never know the truth. All we know is what&#039;s already been said upthread: either he got away with heinous crimes because he could afford to cover them up, or children were victimized by their own parents&#039; greed and/or ignorance -- a la the Satanic sexual abuse hysteria of the eighties -- and an innocent man&#039;s reputation was ruined. Either way, there was no justice, and a bunch of kids were traumatized. It&#039;s awful any way you slice it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Ya’ll can hate me for that, but I’d rather be the person who is on the victim’s side no matter what. </i></p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t think anyone around here would hate you for that.</p>
<p>The problem with the allegations against MJ is that none of us have seen real evidence one way or another, and the very same thing that makes his acquittal suspicious also calls the accusations into question. (Note that I would not have a bad word to say about the children in question either way, but their parents&#8217; motives may not be entirely clear.) Money and power can allow you to buy your way out of even the most serious criminal charges, but they can also make you a target for same. In at least one case, it certainly sounds like the victim&#8217;s father was thinking a lot more about how he could benefit than about his child&#8217;s welfare &#8212; yet in all too many cases, children aren&#8217;t believed when they speak of sexual abuse, so one doesn&#8217;t want to doubt them. The fact is, in the specific case of Michael Jackson, we will most likely never know the truth. All we know is what&#8217;s already been said upthread: either he got away with heinous crimes because he could afford to cover them up, or children were victimized by their own parents&#8217; greed and/or ignorance &#8212; a la the Satanic sexual abuse hysteria of the eighties &#8212; and an innocent man&#8217;s reputation was ruined. Either way, there was no justice, and a bunch of kids were traumatized. It&#8217;s awful any way you slice it.</p>
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		<title>By: Godless Heathen</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Godless Heathen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101080</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t been able to get &quot;Leave me alone&quot; out of my head since I heard.  The song I think was a big catalyst for my hands off view of celebrity gossip.  You can really hear how painful it was for him to be under the microscope every single day of his life, and the video isn&#039;t subtle about the kind of crap he had to put up with.  (And it&#039;s on YouTube of course.) Now, of course, his death starts the three ring circus all over again, as he gets picked apart by every single corner of the media for his body image issues and how his fame affected him.  Even in death, it looks like he&#039;s not going to get his wish to be left alone, how sad.

I have to admit, I echo Jenn&#039;s sentiments expressed upstream.  I believe the victims, in almost every case of rape or sexual abuse I&#039;m going to believe the victims.  In most cases unconditionally.  I don&#039;t need to examine evidence or weigh facts to know that it&#039;s incredibly hard to be taken seriously when you speak out against an abuser.  I don&#039;t believe people just wake up and choose to lie about abuse and sexual assault, especially people whose position of power is so much weaker than the person they&#039;re accusing.

Ya&#039;ll can hate me for that, but I&#039;d rather be the person who is on the victim&#039;s side no matter what.  Somebody should be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t been able to get &#8220;Leave me alone&#8221; out of my head since I heard.  The song I think was a big catalyst for my hands off view of celebrity gossip.  You can really hear how painful it was for him to be under the microscope every single day of his life, and the video isn&#8217;t subtle about the kind of crap he had to put up with.  (And it&#8217;s on YouTube of course.) Now, of course, his death starts the three ring circus all over again, as he gets picked apart by every single corner of the media for his body image issues and how his fame affected him.  Even in death, it looks like he&#8217;s not going to get his wish to be left alone, how sad.</p>
<p>I have to admit, I echo Jenn&#8217;s sentiments expressed upstream.  I believe the victims, in almost every case of rape or sexual abuse I&#8217;m going to believe the victims.  In most cases unconditionally.  I don&#8217;t need to examine evidence or weigh facts to know that it&#8217;s incredibly hard to be taken seriously when you speak out against an abuser.  I don&#8217;t believe people just wake up and choose to lie about abuse and sexual assault, especially people whose position of power is so much weaker than the person they&#8217;re accusing.</p>
<p>Ya&#8217;ll can hate me for that, but I&#8217;d rather be the person who is on the victim&#8217;s side no matter what.  Somebody should be.</p>
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		<title>By: Sweet Machine</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101074</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sweet Machine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, y&#039;all, I have been offline for several days and I appreciate that this conversation played out as respectfully as it did. I do want to say that the reason I didn&#039;t explicitly talk about the molestation charges in the post is that a) this post is not about idolizing/canonizing Jackson; in fact, if you reread it, it is not even about *mourning* Jackson; b) this is a post about body image. It&#039;s fine that we got into other topics in the comments, but I just want to say that this was deliberately NOT an &quot;RIP&quot; post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, y&#8217;all, I have been offline for several days and I appreciate that this conversation played out as respectfully as it did. I do want to say that the reason I didn&#8217;t explicitly talk about the molestation charges in the post is that a) this post is not about idolizing/canonizing Jackson; in fact, if you reread it, it is not even about *mourning* Jackson; b) this is a post about body image. It&#8217;s fine that we got into other topics in the comments, but I just want to say that this was deliberately NOT an &#8220;RIP&#8221; post.</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101025</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carolyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101025</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Lucy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson

You can check out this article - what you are talking about was brought up before MJ&#039;s death and I think it goes to why some people were expressing discomfort at the absolute assertion of MJ&#039;s guilt even after he was acquitted. 

 I also think this isn&#039;t the right thread to go into details about why they should or shouldn&#039;t be believed.  I think a lot of people have already expressed their feelings of hurt about sexual abuse victims being disbelieved and going into the gritty details of examining evidence could be hurtful to members of our community.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Lucy</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson</a></p>
<p>You can check out this article &#8211; what you are talking about was brought up before MJ&#8217;s death and I think it goes to why some people were expressing discomfort at the absolute assertion of MJ&#8217;s guilt even after he was acquitted. </p>
<p> I also think this isn&#8217;t the right thread to go into details about why they should or shouldn&#8217;t be believed.  I think a lot of people have already expressed their feelings of hurt about sexual abuse victims being disbelieved and going into the gritty details of examining evidence could be hurtful to members of our community.</p>
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		<title>By: aebhel</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101024</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[aebhel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101024</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve seen those. And I&#039;m...skeptical about the veracity of those articles, but if they&#039;re true, it&#039;s still not a reason to be nasty at the kid. &lt;i&gt;If&lt;/i&gt; they&#039;re true, the first person we should be condemning is the bastard who was willing to exploit his own child and ruin an innocent man&#039;s life for the sake of money. Either way, that boy was a victim.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen those. And I&#8217;m&#8230;skeptical about the veracity of those articles, but if they&#8217;re true, it&#8217;s still not a reason to be nasty at the kid. <i>If</i> they&#8217;re true, the first person we should be condemning is the bastard who was willing to exploit his own child and ruin an innocent man&#8217;s life for the sake of money. Either way, that boy was a victim.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucy</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2009/06/26/theyll-kick-you-then-they-beat-you-then-theyll-tell-you-its-fair/#comment-101023</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lucy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/?p=3242#comment-101023</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know if this is all Internet hype, but I&#039;ve seen a lot of articles today and yesterday about how Jordan Chandler, one of the boys MJ was accused of molesting, actually WAS lying, and that no sexual abuse had ever taken place. Jordan&#039;s father Evan was apparently the mastermind behind the whole accusation, and he was dead set on getting a giant settlement from the trial and ruining MJ&#039;s career. All the comments on the articles I&#039;ve seen are like &quot;OH NOES YOU LITTLE SHIT UR GOIN TO HELL,&quot; but... what about the father who manipulated his son into saying these things? The kid probably has no idea what he believed really happened. 

So no, certainly no one is excusing MJ. But the fact that it was so dubious makes it hard to totally condemn him- especially when there was another pretty evil adult involved in this situation, doing equal if not worse damage to his own kid. Just saying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if this is all Internet hype, but I&#8217;ve seen a lot of articles today and yesterday about how Jordan Chandler, one of the boys MJ was accused of molesting, actually WAS lying, and that no sexual abuse had ever taken place. Jordan&#8217;s father Evan was apparently the mastermind behind the whole accusation, and he was dead set on getting a giant settlement from the trial and ruining MJ&#8217;s career. All the comments on the articles I&#8217;ve seen are like &#8220;OH NOES YOU LITTLE SHIT UR GOIN TO HELL,&#8221; but&#8230; what about the father who manipulated his son into saying these things? The kid probably has no idea what he believed really happened. </p>
<p>So no, certainly no one is excusing MJ. But the fact that it was so dubious makes it hard to totally condemn him- especially when there was another pretty evil adult involved in this situation, doing equal if not worse damage to his own kid. Just saying.</p>
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