You might have noticed that there hasn’t been a lot of content lately, because things happen — most notably, Kate and I have to go be professional writers sometimes, not to mention the fact that we’re both pretty strenuously ADD, and SM and A Sarah have the equally if not more time-consuming demands of academia. Also, sometimes we burn out on blogging. We’re grateful every time you guys pick up and run with an open thread or a Friday Fluff, because even though this is one of the most rewarding hobbies in the world it is still a hobby, and some days when you only have the mental energy to keep yourself fed, exercised, and employed, it falls by the wayside.
Anyway, like last time we were silent for a while, we’ll offer up as a consolation prize a little behind-the-scenes glimpse of how it works at SP. A reader sent us a link to this article, and the following conversation ensued:
FJ: Can anyone tell what the hell this article is SAYING?
Kate: No, no I cannot. I think maybe it’s that fatphobia doesn’t exist because capitalism does.
FJ: I’m getting something like… standardized sizes don’t fit anyone, so they don’t fit plus sizes, so you should stop selling plus sizes.
Sarah: My most charitable read is that she’s distinguishing the average weight from the mean weight. Her argument, as I see it, is that it’s in the economic interests of the clothing companies to make clothes near the mean (rather than the average simply because that’s how they can maximize the number of people who can wear their clothes while minimizing what they spend on developing different sizes.
IOW, even though the “average” size may be a 14, that doesn’t mean that’s the single size (or range of a few sizes) that the greatest number of women can wear. There’s a big range of sizes above a 14, obviously — and those all affect the average size, but that doesn’t mean that any *one* (or two or three) of those plus sizes is common enough to pull in lots and lots of customers, at least to a brick-and-mortar store. So the sizes promising the greatest numbers of customers wouldn’t be the *average* size (or range of sizes), but the *mean* size, which (she claims) brick-and-mortar stores already do try and cater to.
As I say, that’s my most charitable presentation of her case. I have no idea if it’s true. I also think that her main thesis – i.e. that not carrying sizes over size 14 isn’t sizeist, just good business – is hogwash. Indeed, though she doesn’t say so, her own analysis kind of calls attention to the reason why it’s horseshit. If having an “uncommon body” (her words) means you shouldn’t expect to be accounted for by apparel companies, then whence the proliferation of size 0 models, mannequins, and readily-available clothing? Oh, uh, well, you know, we meant “uncommonly BAD, i.e. FAT” not “uncommonly BEAUTIFUL, i.e. extremely thin. Because we’re happy to have THEIR business.” Sort of like Paul Campos’ point that finding Keira Knightley attractive isn’t seen as this odd, weird fetish… whereas finding someone 350-plus pounds attractive is. Even though both kinds of bodies are equally “uncommon,” statistically. So even if her math is correct, her presentation of it is still really othering.
Also, this isn’t the first time this point has come up about plus size women not spending as much on clothing in the recession. What’s going on there? I’m intrigued and pre-emptively pissed off.
FJ: OK, Sarah can write about it.
A Sarah, as it happens, is working up something else, but luckily the good folks at Jezebel (which I used to turn my nose up at — why?? I still skip all the celeb stuff but they do meaty topics with aplomb) have offered an insider’s take on the “it’s more cost-effective to clothe size 8s even though the average woman is a 14 because the majority of people are not average” argument.
Tatiana the Anonymous Model’s article makes really good use of the analogy between plus and petite clothing, but in my book the last graf is the real money, and the nut of my initial reaction to the Postrel article. She writes: “Moreover, the excuse about cost boils down to complaining that making clothes that fit most women is really hard — and that doesn’t sound quite right coming from companies who are in the business of clothing women.” Word up — how lazy is it to say “oh, fat women’s bodies have all these idiosyncrasies, we’re just going to throw in the towel”? I’ll buy, I suppose, that the average size 8 woman is shaped a little more like a size 8 fit model than the average size 20 woman is shaped like a size 20 fit model. That claim erases a lot of women’s bodies if you cleave to it too strongly, but I could be convinced, at least temporarily for argument’s sake, that there’s less range among most thinner women in a particular size. (Of course, most non-fit-model-shaped fat women I know deal with this by buying one size in tops and another in bottoms, but moving on.) If I believed that clothing manufacturers responded to body variation by actually trying to accommodate various bodies, I’d buy that this puts a bigger burden on them — and even though they don’t, I can see why they might find it more cost-effective to simply stop making the sizes that tend to fit more women less well, and keep making the ones that fit fewer women better. Maybe.
But I’d still find it fucking reprehensible. This is your excuse? That fat women are hard to fit? I watch Project Runway; I’m not surprised that fashion designers would grouse about the fact that there are supposed to be women under those clothes. Making clothes wearable for women who don’t look like models is so harrrrrrrrrrd! But using that as the basis of a claim that the fashion industry isn’t fatphobic is just a bit absurd. If you deliberately ignore a huge portion of your potential clientele allegedly because working with them potentially makes your job a little tricky, you’re pretty much either a bigot or a lazy ass. If clothing manufacturers aren’t fatphobic, they’re even bigger slackers than we are at this blog (and they’re getting paid).
Adding size 16 may make women who wear size 18, 20, or 22 feel a little better, but it won’t get them to buy your clothes.
Um, dude, no it won’t. Adding my size will make me feel better. Anything less than that does diddly squat for me.
It doesn’t seem like rocket science to me. If you want a portion of the money in my pocket, MAKE A PRODUCT THAT I CAN ACTUALLY USE.
I like your analysis. I think A Sarah said “mean” when she meant “mode,” though (you calculate the mean by adding up everybody’s size and dividing by the number of people; mode is the most common size).
But yeah, totally. If your company’s business is designing clothes to fit people, then to say “it’s too haaaaard” is laughable.
I think you mean she meant mode when she said mean. :)
That’s what I said.
oh, ok, I get it.
ha- my tag in the first comment didn’t show up. Never mind me!
oh god, I give up. It was supposed to say “Close Math Tutor” html tag. I will stop monopolizing this thread now.
Oh shit, it IS what you said! I said you meant she said mode when she meant mean because I thought you said she said mean when she meant mode but you said she meant mode when she said mean. This is very confusing.
Practical upshot: Sarah meant “mode,” not “mean,” and Jessica said so. :)
Meanies!
This makes my hatred of the women’s clothing industry even worse. I’m a size 5 or 8 or 11 or 8 or 14 or 7 or 9 etc etc. I have shirts that are size xxs that fit as well as shirts I have that are xl. I’m not kidding. That pisses me off enough. Now for them to complain that they only want to make clothes for people who fit the body image that is *easiest* for them? Seriously? Then why are they in this business? Maybe they should be making Barbie clothes instead – they’re all the same size and shape and they wouldn’t have to worry about any proportion inconsistencies.
You keep on meaning that mode. I do not think it means what you think it means.
word up on the designer shows.
On the “real woman” episode of fashion show (project runway will be back in august!), where the women were not really all that big (probably most in the 8-12 range, and a couple of 14s?) besides all the -bitching- about ass sizes and how hard it was making these clothes, one of the designers had the gaul to say something along the lines of, “Models for my clothes are supposed to be WALKING CLOTHESHANGERS, it’s not my job to design for a body.”
seriously
I think Kate’s initial take was pretty right on. You hear that argument all the time – people want to make money, and prejudice is economically irrational. Hence descrimination doesn’t exist. Ahem.
It reminds me of the old joke about the economist who finds the $20 bill on the street and says, clearly, it’s not actually there, or someone would have picked it up by now.
Honestly, I just don’t buy that it’s all that difficult to make clothes that fit anyone. Regarding larger women, bias-cut fabrics, stretch fabrics, darts, and boning are all just basics that any designer should have in their arsenal, and that treat larger women quite well.
And frankly, if they’d even do the minimum– get rid of the Laura Ashley and Clown College fabric choices, the rickrack, and the random festoonage– that would be a great start.
Can we just agree that the fashion industry is mean, no matter what their mode? :-)
I particularly like the line in the article about how people would scream if asked to pay for increasing sizes. Hello!? Plus sizes almost ALWAYS cost more, but as you’ve pointed out before, size XL doesn’t cost more than size 00…..hmmm…
Y’know, If I had a million dollars I would totally take a survey of measurements of women across the US and use it to help build clothing that would fit more women, better.
Anybody want to give me a million dollars? Or just hire me to do this?
This is precisely what I was talking about last saturday at Manolo for the Big Girl: http://manolobig.com/2009/06/06/ouroboros/
It pisses me off that so many designers consider the human body to be some sort of barrier to their art rather than a necessary PART of their art.
And since a commenter brought up precisely this article you’re skewering in comments on my article, I’m going to link everybody over here to see what logic actually looks like.
I think these designers and clothing manufacturers have missed the point: it’s WORK. If it was all easy and fun it would be called play instead of work and no one would pay you to do it.
Of course, since they’re not doing the work, it seems like they don’t want to get paid after all.
Can we just agree that the fashion industry is mean, no matter what their mode? :-)
WORD. Also, hee!
Honestly, we should all either 1) learn to sew our own clothes or 2) get a tailor. I say this as a fat lady! Because I don’t want to NEED these people anymore! I already do a lot of things for myself: I roofed my house, built my fence, sheetrocked my walls, and I DO knit my own sweaters.
Let’s just all start making our own clothes like in the olden days and ladies clothes fit well and were made well too.
Wait…I think they said at the end of the article that our bodies are uncommon shapes?! But I thought bigger bodies were epidemic….I’m confused?
You’d think that these manufacturers would look at how hard we fat women work to clothe ourselves and recognize that if they made (then let us know they made) plus sizes that we would flock to them like beautiful doves.
These companies are simply retarded for missing out on the plus-sized fashion market share. I agree with a lot of the comments on that other article– a LOT of plus size clothing is just very unflattering and clearly not for the same body types. I’m an accountant and need professional attire, but I can count on one hand how many pieces I didn’t have to take to a tailor. It’s as if these manufacturers want us to feel bad for our body types– and they design them for the bodies they think women should have, not for the bodies we DO have.
“the fashion industry is mean, no matter what their mode”
I love this!
FJ, first I thought you misread me, then I thought you were joking about “mean” having 2 meanings, and then my brain exploded. Sorry!
Also, is it even plausible when they argue that large clothes are cost-prohibitive because the cost of materials is much more than the cost of labor? Even at sweatshop prices for labor, it seems hard to believe that a few extra inches of fabric could make that much difference in the total cost, which would also include transoceanic shipping and marketing and store upkeep and all that.
I found the comparison between petite and plus sized clothing especially interesting – especially as someone who usually needs petite tops (but not pants…the joy of being right on the border between short and average height). I was actually in Ann Taylor yesterday, looking at sale cardigans. The PL fit perfectly, but did they carry it in the same range of colors as the regular sizes? Of course not. In regular sizes they had black, blue, fuchsia, brown, blue, and white. In petite – only black and blue. Not even basic colors like brown or white. *sigh*
Um, dude, no it won’t. Adding my size will make me feel better. Anything less than that does diddly squat for me.
This. It’s all very well and good that Coldwater Creek sells a few things in 3x, or that J.Jill does…but when I’m a 4X and even a J.Jill 3X didn’t fit me properly when I WAS a 3X (hello BREASTS!), it doesn’t make me feel any better.
Being a plus-size 50/50 petite/regular doesn’t help matters. Finding petites in a size 16 (the size my mom wears) is hella hard too, because all short people must be skinny and all fat people must need about six inches of extra leg length, right?
Honestly, we should all either 1) learn to sew our own clothes or 2) get a tailor. I say this as a fat lady! Because I don’t want to NEED these people anymore! I already do a lot of things for myself: I roofed my house, built my fence, sheetrocked my walls, and I DO knit my own sweaters.
It’s a great idea…except that I work full-time, am in graduate school part-time, and spend my extra time taking care of my 3-yo son. I would love to learn how to sew. Finding the time to actually DO it, not to mention finding plus-size patterns in my measurements or learning the skills necessary to adjust them to my measurements, plus shopping for fabrics, plus x, y, z ends up being exhausting.
Oh, and did I mention the depression that makes all of this doubly hard to deal with?
I’d love to learn how to sew when I get the chance…but until then, really, is it too much to ask for a store that provides clothes in my size with a reasonable fit? Seemingly so :(
Oh, I did mean mode! THANKS FILLYJONK! :p Of course if I’d had time to write the thing up proper, I would have corrected it. No, um, really, I’m, like, really mathematically literate.
*digs toe into ground, looks for somewhere to hide*
(I kid! Seriously, thank you Fillyjonk! I’m writing up something on some douchebag’s Gay-Is-The-New-Fat-Because-Both-Make-Me-Feel-Ookie screed.)
These companies are simply retarded
BZZT. We don’t use that word here.
Even at sweatshop prices for labor, it seems hard to believe that a few extra inches of fabric could make that much difference in the total cost
Yeah, I’m reminded of the argument that fat people overburden airplanes, even though the vast vast majority of the weight of a plane is, you know, the plane (and luggage, and fuel — people weight is such a tiny portion that an extra couple hundred pounds is nothing).
THANKS FILLYJONK!
YOU MEAN THANKS JESSICA
;)
I wouldn’t have noticed it if she hadn’t pointed it out and I hadn’t misread her and she hadn’t pointed out that I’d misread her.
(Um, Rachel? using “retarded” as an epithet is Not Cool. )
A friend of mine was complaining about Newport News and their sizes just yesterday and how she hates shopping from catalogs because you can’t really know if something will fit until you can try it on.
Of course, going to the mall where all the stores other than LB and CJ Banks refuse to carry fat sizes makes it impossible to try on things! But the article presents it as perfectly legitimate to sell fat sizes only online. Well, that only works if you operate like Zappos and don’t charge for returns, and if somehow a single store could guarantee that the 30% or so of the US population that doesn’t have home Internet access could miraculously have it right away.
Shopping for womens clothing would be so much easier if the sizes were standardized. Men can buy pants in inch length, why can’t we? Give me the numbers for my fat hips, I can take it for the sake of knowing before I buy whether something has a chance of fitting me!
DRST
No, but I did mean “Thanks Fillyjonk,” because I knew I was supposed to take this one today but I’d only gotten two sentences in. :)
But you’re totally right: THANKS JESSICA for the mode/mean correction! In my defense, my 8th grade math teacher would always make fun, in class, of how bad women and girls are at math, and that’s when I mostly stopped listening to mathy things. :)
The whole thing pisses me off because they act like we don’t know they pay slave labor prices to have the things made, and then they sell t-shirts for $40. I call incredible bullshit!
“Whaaaa, it costs 40 cents per shirt to have the plus size made and only 12 cents for the regular size! Don’t you know what that does to our profit margins!!! How can we afford to operate!?!”
fillyjonk, you are my new blog hero for that BADD post and for the stringent modding of the r-word. Seriously.
someone who usually needs petite tops (but not pants…the joy of being right on the border between short and average height
meems, we need to go shopping together. I’ve got the petite bottom half with non-petite top.
@Regina
“random festoonage” is my new phrase of the day. Love that. Why why must they inflict this on women?
Y’all, I am SO PROUD of my great-grandfather right now —as a pattern-maker in NYC in the 30s, he invented a new way of doing bias-cut bodices that let them fit a wider range of bust-sizes.
From where he was working (address-wise), I suspect he may have been working for the person who later founded Lane Bryant. Srsly.
fillyjonk, you are my new blog hero for that BADD post
[whisper] Psst… That post was mine. [/whisper] :-)
Actually, you and Sweet Machine are my new blog heroes, plural, as I have just realized who authored the BADD post. Sorry for the inattentiveness.
Oh, and Shinobi?
They do this:
every so often in Germany already, and the end result has somehow been for ‘regular’ length pants being built to fit a 6′ tall woman. Seriously, the inseam is 3 inches shorter than the pants my 6’3″ husband wears. And I, at 5’6″ am supposed to be wearing ‘regular’ pants according to all the charts.
Yeah, Laura, I don’t know what they think that’s about. Women are not Easter bonnets.
This is a problem: clothing designers and manufacturers don’t understand women’s bodies and seem to have no desire to learn. Even when I starved myself into a size 6-8, I could fit into the clothes, but the designers hadn’t taken into account that I might have breasts, so tops would be cut so low I’d be falling out of them. I still could not find appropriate clothing. Now at a size 12-14, I have better luck shopping in plus lines. They are size positive and do not make me feel like a freak for being curvy and muscular. I was in a store the other day and when I asked for a 12 or 14, all the salespeople turned around and looked at me as if I had farted vigorously. With great sympathy, one guy showed me the only piece they had in the store that might fit: a shapeless coat that when unsnapped served as a blanket. Yay.
The store was Lululemon, by the way, where I have spent a fortune over the years. I fit very well into their size 12′s; they just never stock them. Fuck ‘em.
I got crosseyed during the mode/mean discussion so maybe someone’s said this, but I love how “mode” evokes “la mode,” ie fashion. That plus the double… er, triple meaning of “mean” makes me happy about the mistake, because I love puns more than I love being correct. :)
I’ll buy, I suppose, that the average size 8 woman is shaped a little more like a size 8 fit model than the average size 20 woman is shaped like a size 20 fit model.
I won’t, to be honest. Sure, fat women come in all shapes and sizes. With my English size 20 figure and rack of doom I can walk into Monsoon and walk out with pretty much anything, because they design for big boobs-small waist-big bum-big thighs, but I can’t wear anything from Evans at all because their fat model has a big stomach, average boobs, a flat wide bum and slim thighs. But the thing is: this is exactly how it was when I was thin, too. I could wear anything in Dorothy Perkins but nothing from Top Shop, Wallis was great but Karen Millen was crap. And my thin friends are the same too. Basically, my thin friends with great legs can wear stuff in Top Shop. My thin friends with great boobs and curvy legs can wear anything in Dorothy Perkins but hate Top Shop. And repeat for a million other shops, purely because there are a million other shops for standard sizes and each of them cuts a bit differently. Yes, women’s bodies come in different shapes and sizes, but it’s bollocks that it’s harder to cut for fat women than thin women. All shops cut differently for different models, sure. But the fact is, if all standard range clothes shops cut clothes on their standard model but sized up for fat women, then fat women would have the same amount of choice as thin women. The problem is that not enough shops want to do plus sized ranges, not that fat women are somehow more bizarrely shaped than thin women. We aren’t. We just don’t have as many places to shop in.
A fashion columnist on why we’re being stuck with online shopping:
http://www.cleveland.com/style/index.ssf/2009/06/size_options_online_are_worth.html
The article was pure nonsense — just an excuse for fatphobia. You guys gave it a good basting.
Just a detail… Mean = Average. The correct term is “mode” (most commonly occurring value in the set).
From your friendly local geek…
–Andy Jo–
The problem is that not enough shops want to do plus sized ranges, not that fat women are somehow more bizarrely shaped than thin women. We aren’t. We just don’t have as many places to shop in.
“Fat women must be impossible to design clothes for — look how hard it is for them to find clothes that fit!”
Ex recto, but I think it’s marketing, rather than what size women are. E.g.,suppose I am a fatophobe who runs a luxury brand. My target market is not thin women per se, but women who aspire to be thin and who are willing to pay to buy into the illusion that if they buy my clothes, they will look like a model. To keep this illusion alive, only people that are within a certain size will be able to get this look.
i am to large to wear a 14 or 16 at most stores…yet the 14/16s of Lane Bryant and similar stores are huge on me. I can never find anything the fits me no matter where I shop.
I complain to my husband and his response is wahh poor you – you have large bust large butt and a small waist…let me see if women will care.
But he doesnt understand how awful it is to go into most stores and be told “ohhh – we dont carry YOUR size – like I have a disease and the go into lane bryant and find one thing in my size that must be altered to fit. I get to the point that I hate shopping…it leaves feel awful about how I look, frustrated and unatractive
Pinky, you had me laughing out loud with the bit about the vigorous fart and the sarcastic “Yay”.
I had a similar reaction when I called my local running store to ask whether they carried my favorite running shoe in a women’s size 12. The guy incredulously made me repeat myself. I actually called him out on it in a lighthearted way at the end of the phone call “By the way, your reaction to size 12 shoes as if I’m some sort of freak kind of made me laugh” and he got all “oh, well, I think we should carry size 12s, it’s just my managers say they don’t sell very well.”
I’m starting to think it’s time to tackle this particular problem at the root: sponsor a prize or a competition for young/new designers, where the sponsoring group picks a group of five people (diverse weights, heights, sizes and body types, possibly including persons who have specialised needs) and the challenge is to design five outfits per “model” (business wear; casual wear; formal wear; underwear; swimwear). The outfits have to suit the models provided, including any specialised needs the models have at that time (for example, if you have one model who is a lactating mother, she should be able to breast-feed in all of the outfits without needing to hide in a corner; if you have a model who has had a mastectomy, there should be provision for prosthetics) as well as being appropriate to the lifestyle of the model in question. The prize at the other end should be a large cash bonus, and/or a guaranteed market for their goods.
The trick would be making this seem prestigious enough to make the major fashion houses think about entering the competition, but that’s a long-term aim. Maybe if we start with one small design college, and challenge the students there to think outside the standard box (and then follow their careers to ensure they continue with the lessons they’ve learned through this challenge) we can at least get a start on the whole “clothes that fit and suit and look good” thing.
And repeat for a million other shops, purely because there are a million other shops for standard sizes and each of them cuts a bit differently.
Echoes all of Katy’s post (I can’t wear Monsoon, but as I’m thin I am lucky enough to have alternatives, even though I would love to wear Monsson because their clothes are gorgeous). No one shop can fit all women, not even Marks and Spencer (who don’t do bras in my size. I feel betrayed as an Englishwoman), but a range of shops damn well ought to.
For people interested in how clothes sizing works, and why we have the limited ranges we do, get hold of “Fit for Real People” by Palmer and Alto (publ. Palmer/Pletsch). It’s a book for dressmakers about how to fit clothes well, and has some really good stuff about how fit changes with fashion, the history of sizing, age and body changes, and how women with exactly the same measurements can have very different bodies. [It also has some stuff I really hate, like the fact that the garments are a bit dated and incredibly Not My Thing, the fitting method is impractical without an assistant ,and its tendency to refer to fat as "fluff", but I think it is basically fat-friendly.]
Meg Thornton, I think I love you.
I used to make costumes for theater and somehow we always got those diva sopranos into gowns. It isn’t any harder to pattern clothing for fat people than for skinny ones. Every body is completely different from every other body. The only way to have clothing that fits is to make it yourself. (Look who’s talking…my sewing machine has an inch of dust on it.)
I love Harper Greer. I’m a size small.
“The article was pure nonsense — just an excuse for fatphobia. You guys gave it a good basting.”
No, it wasn’t: it was a discussion of statistics, which so few people seem to make an effort to understand nowadays. Note that Postrel is making no judgments about the moral worth of fat people, nor about the fairness of an industry that is cutting in-store inventor of plus sizes. She presents hard numbers (decline in sales of plus-size clothes, higher costs of materials over labor, and an extended tail to the weight distribution of buyers) to explain why and industry that is profit-oriented is making the choices it is. I’m sorry if you don’t like it, but please don’t shoot the messenger.
I would add that I suspect that the reason so many stores still stock size 0 clothes is because vanity sizing means that many of those size 0s fit the peak of the bell curve Postrel shows. I, a solid size 14/16, have some size 4 clothes in my wardrobe. I laughed out loud when I saw the label on them. Do they think I’m going to be flattered?
Astra, I definitely don’t understand statistics (am trying to learn, though — slooooowly; I want to buy The Teaching Company statistics course as soon as we’ve moved) so this is an honest question. Paul Campos did write that people like Keira Knightley are as far to one side of the bell curve as deathfat! people are to the other side. If that’s the case, then how can Keira Knightley-range sizes be more profitable than deathfat sizes, if not for fatphobia? I honestly just don’t understand the math that would make it “fair.” (Unless KK;s quite a bit smaller than the size zeros?)
“the fashion industry is mean, no matter what their mode”
This is brilliant!
And thank you so much for taking a look at the article. It annoyed the bejeebers out of me, and I was dying to see someone skewer it. I must say, you all did an excellent job of the skewering!
I agree with you, Astra. Showing a graph that demonstrates a thick tail to the distribution curve is hard data, not bias (assuming the data is fairly obtained in the first place). I expect that if someone produced a graph of house sizes in a certain city, there would similarly be a bell shape with a skewed upper end, because there would be a lot of smaller dwellings and a smaller number of very big houses, which would result in a mean floor area per dwelling that would be significantly bigger than the mode floor area. That wouldn’t be saying that it was morally wrong (or right) to own a mansion rather than a small house. The moral questions are separate from the facts. I thought the article made a good effort to explain a statistical concept, although A Sarah is right that that the way the information is presented is “othering”.
But size availability is generally a mystery to me. I wanted a pair of size 5 black ballet pumps, which I should think is probably the commonest female shoe size in England, or nearly, and there were none in the huge shop I went to last week, not one pair, although every other size was in stock.
ps I have posted before, but as Alison S – not sure why my id has changed, it’s not intentional.
Astra, it may have discussed statistics, but it did so in a bullshit way. And I say that as someone who earns her living with statistics.
IE, the claim that plus size sales dropped 8% vs 2% for regular. Is that absolute or relative? What were the respective denominators? Do those figures account for the number of retailers who have stopped carrying plus sizes? In otherwords, the 8% drop might be units of inventory not sold on the basis of stores not selling them. What other factors contributed. And how sooth are those numbers to begin with? Were they derived using accepted accounting methods? How much more per unit is “prohibitive”? How much lower is the profit margin on a plus-sized piece compared to the same “standard sized piece”?
We don’t know the answer to any of these because Ms. Pasquarelli (sp?) didn’t provide any substantiation. She didn’t cite any sources for her “facts” that were peer reviewed. She didn’t provide any context for her relative claims.
In my book, that’s some craptacular statistifying! In other words, it looks like hard data, but it isn’t. If she tried to publish that in an economics journal, hell, if she submitted it as a paper in Econ 101, she would get Teh FAIL. It was a dressed-up opinion piece.
A Sarah – the answer to that one is simple – it’s not a symmetrical curve, and not a true bell shaped curve, therefore. If the mode weight is 140 pounds, say, there are lots of people who weigh 140 pounds more than the mode, and some who weigh twice that, but absolutely nobody who weighs 140 pounds less than the mode. Stephen Jay Gould, the evolutionary scientist, did a brilliant job of explaining this with regard to mortality data when he was first diagnosed with cancer: if the mode survival time for a certain disease is a year, the curve can’t be symmetrical, because the least possible survival time is 0 months, but some people will still be alive 3 years or 10 years after diagnosis. So going back to the weight example, all the people who weigh less than the mode are squashed into a smaller range of weights than all the people who weigh more than the mode, and therefore there are more people at each weight for the lighter weights than there are for the heavier weights. So if there are 1000 people at size 10 but 100 people at size 22, there are more potential size 10 sales than size 22 sales, whereas if you make a garment that will somehow “fit” the 22s and the 24s, you double the number of potential sales. In theory, of course, and leaving aside the fact that we are dealing with people here.
Yeah, I’m a little confused about the people saying how well we skewered the article… I’m not skewering anything an industry that’s supposedly about making clothes for humans getting all whiny about how hard humans are to make clothes for.
So going back to the weight example, all the people who weigh less than the mode are squashed into a smaller range of weights than all the people who weigh more than the mode, and therefore there are more people at each weight for the lighter weights than there are for the heavier weights.
Now that’s some statsifyin’! If they’d said that in the article I would have known what they were talking about. In theory. (Though you’re switching back and forth between weight and size in a way that I don’t think is justified — still, I see what you’re getting at.)
IrishUp, I swear, while attempting to read your post, my eyes glazed over, I forgot my name, and lost all sensory contact with the world around me for five seconds :P Guess that’s why I’ll never be a statician! But you’re right… telling us that one variable drops by 8% and another drops by 2% really doesn’t tell us much if there is no other context provided.
On another note: How dare we expect people whose job it is to make clothing that fits human beings to actually make clothing that fits human beings! *stamps foot*
The TC2 web site (source of the height and weight data) also has the mean measurement information. Interestingly, they not only vary by age (which I would have expected), but also by race:
http://www.tc2.com/news/news_sizedata.html
So for white women age 18-35, the mean hip size=41.8 inches, waist size=32.6, and bust=39.1.
For black women age 18-35 the numbers are hip size = 44 inches, waist 34.3, bust 41.2
The mode is probably smaller than that, for reasons alisonsideways nicely explained. But even so, it seems likely that black women are going to be disproportionately affected by the lack of larger sizes in stores.
Ahhh, Alisonsideways, I think I get it. Thanks for the explanation. So, is it sort of like, there are more different ways (thus requiring more different sizes of clothes) on the heavier side of the bell curve, than on the lighter?
Well poo. I can start to see the other side of it, then. I hate it when that happens, lol.
1 . I’m so HAPPY that the pro writers on this site are SO DAMN GOOD,’cause they think of Great Points I wish me ol’ brain could, by cracky ! I love the wit and the insight.
2. Let’s all go to saris or togas and spend the xtra $$ on acccesories!!!!!!
3. Uh, I think#2 is the Cabernet, but I love this site!
The truth is the fashion world, with a few exceptions like Lane Bryant, so not want women over a certain size as customers. It takes away the cache and it will scare away the thin women who they want to buy their clothes.
I also think that fat women who have not accepted their bodies may indeed buy less clothes. I can’t tell you how many times I vowed to diet first and then buy nice things. Many fat women have internalized fat-hatred.
Another factor is that thinner women are usually younger women. Do younger women spend more on clothes? I don’t know. Given the average age of shoppers and the number of stores that market toward women over say 30, I would say there are also less choices for those women.
I am so glad for size acceptance. It makes shopping easier for me but no less frustrating. At least I don’t leave the mall in tears, full of self-hate and a vowing to diet again.
Karen, re: togas and saris, YES, I would absolutely wear an alb all the time if I were willing to deal with the social fallout. But, I’m not. yet.
Shopping for womens clothing would be so much easier if the sizes were standardized. Men can buy pants in inch length, why can’t we? Give me the numbers for my fat hips, I can take it for the sake of knowing before I buy whether something has a chance of fitting me!
Because the number means something to a lot of women. I wouldn’t have a problem saying “Can I see this in a 56 long?” when shopping for a dress, but I can imagine the whining I’d hear from smaller customers about how faaaaaat they are because they wear a 24 now.
Can I just say how much I love the fact that there are so many Shapelings who are statisticians?
Maybe we should do a study to see if SP has an above average representation of statisticians in its readership, and if so, what does this mean?
I am with Astra and alisonsideways. In fact, I was starting to type out a long illustration of what the article is saying, then I saw that alisonsideways had pretty much done it already, only succinctly. Another way of saying it, looking at that curve, is that if each dress size fits a 10-pound range of women, and if they need a size to fit at least 5% of the population in order to make it economical to sell that size at a particular price, then it is only economical to sell the sizes that fit women 110-180 lbs (if you use the age 18-25 statistics), or 120-190 lbs (if you use the age 26-35 statistics). For women lighter than 110 lbs or heavier than 190 lbs, you’re going to have to sell at a higher price to be able to cover your fixed costs.
In addition, it is probably true that women who weigh 110 lbs are overall more uniform in silhouette than women who weigh 190 lbs. Not exactly the same, but they probably have a smaller range of waist sizes, for example. So it’s easier to make one skirt that fits all the women who weigh 110 than it is to make one that fits all the women who weigh 190. This exacerbates the effect already described.
I would add that I suspect that the reason so many stores still stock size 0 clothes is because vanity sizing means that many of those size 0s fit the peak of the bell curve Postrel shows.
…no, no way in hell am I above the peak of the bell curve at size 2. I’m ~30th percentile in height and just a few percentile in weight, and my measurements are tiny.
There’s also more difference in proportion in small women than I think is being acknowledged by some – if nothing else because of breast size, which is hugely variant. “hugely” is an official statisticalicious term, fyi.
Anyway, what does it mean that the company “collected body scanner information from 6,800 women representing a cross-section of the U.S. population?” How do they decide it’s representative? And why wouldn’t it make more sense for this article to use larger, peer-reviewed, and medically respected data sets for height and weight data instead? (Those measures don’t exactly require a 3D body scanner.) That the weight curve looks different from population curves I’ve seen from those more respected data sets makes me skeptical that their data are a truly bias-free cross-section. And if you’re going to use data to back up your article, use data you can cite from real journals, FFS.
But hey, what do I know, I’m just arguing from ideology and emotion!
Can I just say how much I love the fact that there are so many Shapelings who are statisticians?
And can I just say how embarrassed I am by my mean/mode confusion in light of that fact? (Okay, I’ll stop mentioning it now. I’m starting to fixate. Sorry.)
After reading this thread, I am so depressed. I have to take a statistics class before I can officially start grad school. I’m now so confused that I’m convinced I’ll never make it into grad school.
I don’t know if this is cause for celebration as much as I think it is — but today, after a lot of reading here, I went to the mall, and bought two skirts and a summery dress. I tried to remember when I’d last worn a dress and realized — it was probably 2001. I’m not sure when I last felt so good leaving a store. And so unashamed asking the sales clerk for my size…
I’m sure that somebody somewhere has written about this before, but I was thinking on my way home about the way in which the relative unavailability of plus sized clothing expresses broader cultural attitudes about personal power and personal value. If there’s one way in which we’re ‘supposed’ to exert our personal power, and flaunt our personal value or status, in North America, it’s through consumerism. In addition to ways in which that value system obviously excludes people with low incomes, it also has the potential to exclude particular people or groups (like big women) by making status items (like attractive clothing) unavailable to them, for practical reasons.
In other words: is there any higher insult in North American culture than to be told, implicitly, that you are not *worthy* of participating in the consumption engaged in by other people in your community? This is just another way of saying what a lot of you have been saying, but somehow putting it in those terms made the political element here really apparent to me. And then I got a little indignant.
Not that I necessarily approve of participating in this kind of status game. But, well, I’ve spent years of my life dressing quite badly, and you know what? I’m not willing to spend my life marked as second-class in that way. It *sucks*. And for me, it was a form of self-flagellation, a way of declaring that I was entirely willing to suffer for the sins of the flesh. Or the sin of the pizza, or whatever. :-P
Soooo… I guess buying my first dress in almost ten years is a statement that means something, right?
I’m not statisticexpialidocious enough to know if their claim is correct, but if it is, then for the first time I’ve heard a semi-legit reason why so many stores only stock plus sizes online. If there are fewer women at each specific size in that range, then the internet might be the only place where you can get great enough numbers at each size to get a good profit margin.
That being said–I don’t buy it. The fashion industry is so completely fat-(and real-person-shape-)phobic that I suspect cost isn’t driving them so much as disdain. And while I’ve never worked in retail and don’t know the money value of shelf space, are there really so few women at each plus size that it’s not profitable to keep at least some of the clothes in your actual stores?? Come on, it’d make so many people happy. And happy people=returning customers.
is there any higher insult in North American culture than to be told, implicitly, that you are not *worthy* of participating in the consumption engaged in by other people in your community?
sf – that is brilliant and a good summation of the larger issue at work here, IMNSHO
DRST
Hey, everybody, check out the graph of weight-by-height for all adult ages. The mode for ages 56 and up is right around 150-170 pounds. Which is what I would expect: a lot of people put on more fat as they get old. The graph shows a much larger range of weights, too, all the way up to 400 lbs. Just like we’ve observed; fancy that!
I think we’re looking at age discrimination too: manufacturers only wanting to sell to young adults, and ignoring older women.
maybe not all designers are… ahem… mean! now i admit i know nothing about isaac mizrahi or his clothing. but i was at least happy that he called one of the designers sizeist on the latest episode of the fashion show.
most of the designers except rico: “ZOMG i have to design for these REAL WOMEN (yeah we all love that phrasing. sigh.) and they are SO ENORMOUSLY GIGANTIC”
rico: “i dunno what you are all whining about b/c i do this kinda thing all the time for my family members and it’s really no big deal”
isaac: “quit your sizeist spewing. these are the exact kinda people who you might someday be lucky enough to be designing for.”
paraphrased, obv. perhaps he was just trying to be edgy somehow, but i’m an eternal optimist. so i hope he is actually for designing clothing for actual human bodies no matter what size they may be!
About clothing that fits one part of a person and not another part – Bravissimo who cater largely to large breasted women of average overall size (I’m afraid they don’t do plus sizes) have a very limited range of clothing (they mostly do bras) which the have sized by dress-size and then “curvyness” in 3 levels. This means that I can buy shirts from them that fit me at the waist *and* over my bust; which is rare. I think it would be good to extend that system to a larger range of sizes and a larger range of styles – however obviously it is increasing the number of items that each shop needs to stock, which is expensive.
It’s difficult to talk about designing “for real humans”, basically all clothes are designed with *some* real human in mind. I want clothing to be available that fits *all* people, but the people who fit into the available clothing are still “real humans”.
Does anyone here remember Chic Jeans? Sold in waist, hip, and length variations?
I loved those jeans. They disappeared after a couple of seasons, but I wore the 8 pairs I had bought for years until they wore out.
Since then, the only jeans I’ve ever been able to wear without hemming (I’m 4’11″) are LL Bean Flannel Lined jeans.
If there are fewer women at each specific size in that range, then the internet might be the only place where you can get great enough numbers at each size to get a good profit margin.
That being said–I don’t buy it. The fashion industry is so completely fat-(and real-person-shape-)phobic that I suspect cost isn’t driving them so much as disdain.
I think both of these points get at the heart of the matter. Yes, it’s true that there might not be a big enough market for plus size clothes in any one geographical location to make carrying them in-store economically logical. It’s also true, however, that we live in a fatphobic culture and fashion is a notoriously fatphobic industry, so it’s highly unlikely that people are just dying to cater to the fatty market but are thwarted by the numbers.
So here’s a compromise that just occurred to me (and which I don’t think anyone else has suggested, though I might have missed something upthread). Why can’t bricks and mortar retailers that only offer plus sizes online have samples of every size in store — so the fatties can at least try stuff on — and then offer to order the items for you right there and waive the shipping charges (which, for instance, LB and Eddie Bauer already do if you want something they don’t have in store)? I mean, it would suck in that you still couldn’t just walk into a store and walk out with new clothes, but it would be a huge fucking improvement over A) ordering stuff that may or may not fit and paying shipping for it, and B) feeling, not without reason, that the retailer in question does not welcome fat people into its stores. (And as stock changes, they could sell off the samples at a discount, so fatties would actually have some prayer of walking out with new clothes occasionally.)
I’d be all over a system like that, even though it still disadvantages fat people, because it would represent a sincere fucking effort to serve the plus-size market better, despite the economic realities. As it is, though, all of these decisions seem to come down to, “Ehh, screw the fatties.” You can quote me all the statistics you like, but if you made absolutely no effort to attract the plus-size market or serve us well in your stores when you DID carry our sizes — OH HAI OLD NAVY — I have a lot of trouble believing that your whole problem, from a business standpoint, is the number of people wearing any given size.
Cost is also a factor. Because they require more fabric, larger sizes are more expensive to manufacture.
I am sick of hearing this. A few extra inches of fabric costs… what? A dollar? Five dollars? (given that these companies buy fabric wholesale, at what I’m sure are the cheapest prices available).
And then they charge double for fatties, what a comparable garment in a “standard” size would cost.
Please explain how this is OMGDESTROYINGTHEPROFITMARGINS.
See, I buy the majority of my clothing online nowadays. I cannot stand going to the mall, so I don’t anymore, unless I’m taking some young relative (sister, cousin, neice, etc) who needs to buy a homecoming dress/back to school clothes/christmas presents/etc. And even then I focus only on what THEY are buying. Because I really like clothes, and fashion, and I just can’t bear walking past window after window of Headless Skinnies (mannequins: half my width, twice my height!) wearing adorable outfits that I’m not allowed to have.
Kate, that is fucking brilliant.
Wal-Mart (a.k.a. The Evil Empire) will do Site-to-Store shipping for, like, a buck. Why can’t other stores do something similar?
The Gap trio would be an ideal company to do this. Banana Republic can have size 14 and 16 samples to try on, Gap can do 18 and 20s, and Old Navy can do their entire plus and petite sections. Then the marginalized customer can order in their size and have it shipped to the store for pickup for free or 50% off regular shipping. Returns will be free because they’ll just be added to that store’s sample inventory, and the samples and returns will be sold in the back corner of an Old Navy near the clearance every 3 or 6 months.
Exchanges will continue to be a big pain in the ass as usual, so just buy one in each size and return what doesn’t fit.
Astra, I definitely don’t understand statistics (am trying to learn, though — slooooowly; I want to buy The Teaching Company statistics course as soon as we’ve moved) so this is an honest question. Paul Campos did write that people like Keira Knightley are as far to one side of the bell curve as deathfat! people are to the other side. If that’s the case, then how can Keira Knightley-range sizes be more profitable than deathfat sizes, if not for fatphobia? I honestly just don’t understand the math that would make it “fair.” (Unless KK;s quite a bit smaller than the size zeros?)
Keira Knightley generally does not shop in the stores listed in this article. That the high-end, ready to wear fashion industry is fat-phobic is undeniable (just ask Anna Wintour or Karl Lagerfeld). Plus, the buyers for $5000 dresses are, I would guess, disproportionately skinny, because anyone who is willing to pay that much for their wardrobe is going to make the sacrifices necessary to fit into them, like long-term starvation.
Once you get as skinny as KK, I think you do run into problems finding clothes in stores, though. I remember reading that Nichole Ritchie, both very petite and at one point extremely skinny, couldn’t fit into the smallest sizes in some stores.
So the retailers are basically saying, we don’t want your fat money.
If you must buy from us, do it via the internet where you will not be seen.
Astra, it may have discussed statistics, but it did so in a bullshit way. And I say that as someone who earns her living with statistics.
IrishUp, I’m not going to disagree with anyone who argues caution when reading statistical arguments presented in popular articles. In this case, however, I happen to be extremely familiar with the author, having read her blog and her books in the past, and therefore have my own, positive opinion of her competence when she presents such analyses. (As an aside, if you have concerns about her numbers, I bet she’d be happy to address them if you emailed her.)
I don’t think it’s fair to argue that Postrel doesn’t meet the standards of peer review worthy publications in an article for a Slate spin-off; she already lost several readers presenting the data at the level she did. Note also that she did cite the source of her numbers: the clothing industry itself. It’s irrelevant whether those numbers are peer-reviewed because the point of her article was to explain how the industry makes the decisions it does, in which case their own numbers are the correct ones to use.
Kate….stellar idea. If retailers really wanted to make money they would have thought of that long ago. It seems everyone is satisfied with status quo….and of course, fat people shouldn’t wear nice clothes. Sigh.
It’s irrelevant whether those numbers are peer-reviewed because the point of her article was to explain how the industry makes the decisions it does, in which case their own numbers are the correct ones to use.
Right, the reporting is fine; it’s the rationale that’s bullshit.
“Why can’t bricks and mortar retailers that only offer plus sizes online have samples of every size in store — so the fatties can at least try stuff on — and then offer to order the items for you right there and waive the shipping charges … ?”
BRILLIANT.
I’ve often thought this about Land’s End and their swimwear, which for some inexplicable reason are never offered in the Sears stores but for which they send out many, expensive, free! glossy catalogs every year. WTF? spend where it makes sense – even if it’s only to have a single fit garment in every size you offer available.
Yeah, I think the ‘instant gratification’ factor of walking out with new clothes is compelling – but mostly, i don’t want to pay for, wait for, and then pay to send back something that doesn’t have a *hope* of fitting. so how much higher can the internet sales really be? I’m not the only one who thinks like this.
@IrishUP
I got the ‘scienterrific!’ stink off the article, too. “It’s not that we discriminate! It’s MATH!” Oh! Well, why didn’t you say so? Now I feel so much better about dressing like a bag lady! Or in stretchy, hot, uncomfortable, clingy polyester blends! ‘Cause making things easier on retailers is so important to me.
I think the era of off-the-rack needs to come to an end. It doesn’t work now, it has *never* worked *well* – for anyone – and we should collectively stop pretending it has. I frequently see people who are in much smaller sizes wearing garments just as ill-fitting as mine, either because they believe in the fashion statement of a trend that does not work on their bodies and prefer to suffer, or because like the plus-sized people, they can’t find things that fit, either.
OMFG i should not have said “bag lady” – that was a term i used when i was fifteen! PLEASE STRIKE. kthxbai
*disclaimer: i am technically homeless, by the standards of many! i swear it was not meant as an insult to peeps with no homes.
Right, the reporting is fine; it’s the rationale that’s bullshit.
A few people have stated that the rationale for removing plus-size clothes from stores is illogical for companies that are in the business of making clothes. A more accurate statement would be that these companies are in the business of making money by selling clothes. As a result, their rationale is only bullshit from their perspective if it results in a significant loss of sales. The best way to ensure that would be to organize a boycott.
As a result, their rationale is only bullshit from their perspective if it results in a significant loss of sales.
In an ideal world, sure, but see pretty much every other discussion of plus-sized fashion marketing on this blog. They have no idea whether pulling or failing to offer plus sizes is resulting in loss of sales, because they either dismiss any reason for attempting to offer plus sizes, or they offer them for a few weeks in the back of the store without telling anybody about it in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard.” The rationale is a post facto rationale for why they’re not doing something they apparently don’t want to do anyway.
or they offer them for a few weeks in the back of the store without telling anybody about it in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard.”
I just couldn’t let this reference pass uncommented on. HHGTG for the win.
How are we supposed to boycott stores we can’t shop in already?
Ottermatic did it brilliantly the other day. She wrote to Anthropologie about what clothes she would have bought from them (specifying designs by name and everything) and added up what they had just lost in sales by refusing to stock her size at all.
It’s sort of a virtual boycott, since we can’t actually shop there, but if we write similar letters to enough companies in the same way, it might just be enough to convince one or two of them to make an honest experiment.
Twistie, my head exploded. What a great idea. I missed that post because I’ve been falling down on my feed-reading, but it’s here and probably deserves its own post linking to it.
Hmmm…
I’m with Mark Twain: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
I’m sorry, but at some point you are taking statistics too far. Yeah, so you make clothes that only people that fit in them will buy. Isn’t that kind of the point of manufacturing?
Figuring out clothes that will fit 200 of your customers rather than 2000, making things that will truly fit half the size 28s that walk in, instead of fitting badly all the size 28s…. sounds too expensive, all that silly making customers not feel like shit for shopping at your stores, etc.
If you can afford to make 600 cheesy kitten tshirts, that will piss off 80 percent of your potential business, I think you can make 300 tshirts that fit those with extra boobage and 300 that will fit those with lesser boobage, and earn the undying love of a good 60-70 percent.
I know, I know, I’m just talking silly talk. It’s proven statistically that NOT satisfying any of your customers fully makes more money and business sense, so keep doing what you are doing and I will keep ignoring the deep sense of offense I feel in almost every contact I have with you, Fashion Industry.
I’d love it if there were at least three versions of every shirt size – ‘little boobs’ ‘medium boobs’ and ‘big boobs’ or something. I HATE taking in boob regions, hate it hate it hate it, but what else can you do when you wear a size 18, but are also a AA?
“Ottermatic did it brilliantly the other day. She wrote to Anthropologie about what clothes she would have bought from them (specifying designs by name and everything) and added up what they had just lost in sales by refusing to stock her size at all.”
Okay, I am SO going to do this from now on
The biggest message the fashion and beauty industry give us is that we are less than because we are women and less than as women if we don’t buy their products.
What other business gets repeat busines by making their customers feel bad about themselves? (OK the diet industry is just as bad or worse.) They are masters at exploiting fear of fat and any other fears a woman may have.
rather than writing to anthropologie, this whole thing makes me want, even more, to support the stores and designers that make their clothes *for women* and not for mannequins. even if that means spending more and buying fewer items. i think there are a few blogs etc linked here that might provide some options. personally, i’m a fan of eddie bauer for this reason, even if their stuff is a little “older.” i’ve also found that donna karan’s clothes ( off the shelf at macy’s etc) are cut more for real women, and i think i’ve read interviews with her to this effect.
I never felt more unattractive than when I was shopping with all my girlfriends in vegas…and the girl says “oh we dont really care YOUR size” Then suggested I try a store my grandmother shops at and says they are the only store in the mall that has your size I think. She looked at me as if I was a leaper.
I am a size 14/16 on top and a 16/18 on the bottom for gosh sakes…
I am going to vegas next week and have opted to not go shopping with the girls…I will hang out by the pool…in my new bikini – which I had to order online because of the 20 something sales clerks “ohhh we dont carry bikinis in your size…and why do you need an underwire. Maybe if you need an underwire you shouldnt be wearing a bikini” Yeah – reported that comment to her manager and walked out…not that they care…they didnt want my money anyway.
Long and short – I hate shopping
Sorry, fillyjonk, I did use weight and size in the same argument, and I didn’t mean to imply they were interchangeable, I just didn’t think it through.
I’m glad my statistics explanation helped – I am not a statistician but a vet, so I suppose I do largely earn my living by explaining science to people with variable prior knowledge ; )
Another reason why the light/small end of the curve is favoured, apart from that end of the curve being squished compared with the other end as discussed above, and the effects of age and size prejudice, may be that the light/small end also includes young people who haven’t yet finished growing. My 14 year old daughter is a UK size 8, which would make her what? a 2 or 4 in the US? She is wearing adult clothes because she prefers the styles, but she has not yet finished growing in height, and I don’t expect her to remain an 8 as she matures physically, either. Many of her friends are the same – so I would guess this would increase the sales of smaller sizes in fashionable styles, as there are proportionately more teens wearing these smallest sizes than there are adults (I mean, a bigger proportion of the teen demographic is size 8 than is the case for the young adult demographic).
“they offer them for a few weeks in the back of the store without telling anybody about it in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard.””
Bwahahahahaha!
This is exactly what happened with the Gap’s wonderful “Forth and Towne” store, which sold clothing for grown-up women in sizes 2-20. It was open in my area for less than a year, and I spent hundreds of dollars there in the few short months it was open. I told a lot of my friends about it and they were planning to check it out–but the Gap closed it before they had the chance. Basically, Gap was hemorrhaging money from every orifice that year and Forth and Towne didn’t turn a profit in the first five minutes, so they shut it down. See? That proves there’s no market for stylish clothing cut to fit women in a variety of sizes and shapes.
I got a haircut yesterday (in a rather swanky salon) in a great little downtown shopping district, and as I walked back to my car, I thought about all the money I was saving by not walking into any of the lovely little shops that don’t carry my size. Given the consumer-oriented society we live in, I find it hard to believe that it’s impossible for anyone to figure out a way to relieve me of some of that money, no matter what the challenges might be.
P.S. Realizing that sarcasm doesn’t always come across online, I thought I’d better clarify that this:
“See? That proves there’s no market for stylish clothing cut to fit women in a variety of sizes and shapes.”
was indeed intended as sarcasm!
Does anyone know if there’s an online distribution graph for dress size, pant size, waist size, etc for American women? The weight distribution graph doesn’t really tell us what size people are, because that depends on both height and where the weight is.
I should do the same virtual boycotting with shoes too! I usually wear kids’ shoes, because manufacturers don’t seem to like to make size 5.5 shoes anymore (American sizes). And whenever I say that a part of my body is “too small” women usually say that they’re envious, as if my foot size has to do with fatness, which is what I think they’re comparing that to perhaps-until I tell them that I don’t consider “adult” shoes to be ones that have pictures of Barbie or Dora or Hannah Montana that light up and flash
To clarify – *as if being fat is so horrible. It just pisses me off, because I seem to get the idea that the idea that fatness is horrid is so ingrained that people just hear the word, “small” and immediately become envious without listening to the rest of the comment. Like when people say, “I wish I had small feet,” sometimes I reply, “Well, only if you are also as short as I am, because if not, you’d always fall over-taller people are going to have longer feet…” DUH
The other false assumption here is that each size increase correlates to the same weight increase. I know for me, I can gain 50 lbs and only increase one or maybe two sizes. (from a 16ish to a 18ish) Someone who starts at a size 2 is not going to be able to do the same thing. So there may be fewer people at each weight point, but more weight points will fit in any given size.
To put it another way, if someone did a study that actually had groups of people try on a garment that had standard styling through all of the sizes, then recorded the closest “fit”, I would guess that the main part of the bell curve would include plenty of plus sizes. Obviously, the standard garment wouldn’t fit every body’s idiosyncrasies, but that’s what different brands and fit models are for.
Just wanted to chime in with what a friend got when she asked Coldwater Creek about only carrying her size online. “You know, honestly? Those sizes just don’t LOOK GOOD on the hangers!”
@FJ, I actually think there is a real problem in your reporting if you make your article look like it has “facts” in it, then provide the reader with no way to determine the veracity of the facts. (And I say this as the daughter & grandaughter of journalists.) Astra had originally written
“She presents hard numbers (decline in sales of plus-size clothes, higher costs of materials over labor, and an extended tail to the weight distribution of buyers) to explain why and industry that is profit-oriented is making the choices it is.” , and I wanted to point out that the writer, and people quoted, only “claimed” these things without substantiation. At least, as far as I was able to trace the provided links, there was no substantiation for the numbers or claims being made. The article quoted specific individuals & provided links to the people quoted, but not say, an industry report, or a table comparing of materials vs labor costs for a variety of clothing items. Thus, if you take a good hard look at it, it reads more like an opinion piece.
I didn’t mean to imply that a Double X peice was intended to be a journal submission or formal paper (though I realize my comment reads that way). A real “article” (as in not Op/Ed) should leave the reader with some good primary data or sources by which the reader can come to an independant conclusion. What I should have stated is that, at least according to the classic standards of journalism, the article failed to make its author’s case in any independant, verifiable way.
I actually find this kind of piece some of the most deeply dishonest corruption of reporting. If you’re going to write an opinion piece shaming teh fattiez, just come on out and do it. Don’t mislead other people into thinking there is objective data that backs up your bigotry, FFS.
Now, Wiki has an interesting article on US sizes here (particularly about the vanity sizing/catalougue sizing):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_standard_clothing_size
And here are links to US pop (cauc women in the links, men and other races avaiable following the links) of US weight
http://www.halls.md/chart/women-weight-w.htm
And height:
http://www.halls.md/chart/women-height-w.htm
If you look at these charts, it seems to me that based on the sizes people actually ARE, at least 25%-50% of the people buying clothes, are going to fit into sizes larger than the 12-14-16 max that has become the norm in clothing stores. I can’t imagine how it is possible to objectively say that 1/4-1/2 of people are somehow a niche or a specialtiy market.
Loads of people up thread have said this, and speaking as someone designs clothing, I can tell you that you’re all spot on: The fit for ANY size is highly specialized, and what’s happening is that people are getting lazy. Some brands actually take the time to pick a type of fit (AKA, a type of body or set of proportions) they are going to be known for. Then they design their clothing from scratch based on that, and grade (size up and down) the clothing accordingly.
But a lot of the time brands are just ripping each other off, buying another store’s product and taking it back to their studios for copying and altering. Or starting with a pre-fab sloper (pattern) and so they mostly just tweak the detailing, not the fit. Hence why my “itty bitty waist with a round thing in your face” has has to resort to either totally ripping apart every pair of jeans I buy, or making my own at home, for the last 2-3 years, as skinny jeans have become popular (which I love) but all will either pull at my man-calves, gape at the small of my back, or both. And I am of a size that I can still easily shop in stores – “easily” meaning that in the loosest sense they having things in stock that “fit”.
I don’t even think laziness is the catch word really, but greed. How many units do you really have to sell for an endeavor to be worthwhile? Does every industry really benefit from economies of scale? Which brings me to another point that although larger size use more fabric per garment, when you start to buy more fabric, up to a point, it becomes much cheaper per yard/gram. And once a factory is ramped up to run a range of sizes, the more they run of those sizes, the cheaper it is to manufacture them per garment. So actually the only way I can see most stores saving by not stocking larger sizes or only stocking them for web orders is that they may have less total cash outlay because they will cut fewer pieces and won’t have to ship them to stores. But the garments then become more expensive per piece, and their customer service outlay goes way up due to higher processing of returns, and possible freight increases as they work to have quicker turnaround time from factories so they can stock fewer items and base their factory re-buys on accumulating web sales. (Er, why yes, my day job is for an apparel manufacturer in customer service, funny you should ask :).)
Anyway, there is no good reason why people aren’t filling a huge portion of the market share except that they are thinking short term and not long term. They are thinking ‘What can I toss overboard to save weight before the end of Q4 ’09 so that the end of year report looks better to my shareholders?” That is so, so, so different than “What kind of patterns and factory relationships can I develop in the midst of this downturn that will ensure I meet the needs of the market better so when things turn around so my business can thrive in the long run?”
At the end of the article Postrel says, “It’s a practical way to give women with relatively uncommon bodies clothes that might actually fit.” I gotta say, I love shopping online. I’ve been buying books, computer parts, small appliances, heck even large appliances online for years. I buy most Christmas presents online. In the past year, I’ve come to love shopping for clothes online for the reason Postrel says. I have a range of choices that I have never had in a brick and mortar store. Also I can support small merchants who seem to want my business and care about making quality goods in my size. I’ve bought some lovely things in the past few months particularly, since I started reading this site and Fatshionista with your many recommendations to great merchants. And I’ve been very, very fortunate in that I haven’t had to send anything back except for a couple bras, and that was to a merchant with a decent return policy.
BUT!!! But and however! . . . That still doesn’t erase the fact that the World Does Not Fit. These tiny, recent exceptions do not outweigh 40 years of walking into stores and walking right out again because the World Is Too Small. I capitalize those statements because they are shorthand for rants I have made over and over again.
Nothing is made to fit me. It’s not just that I’m a fat woman. I’m a supersized woman, so even plus-size stores are too small. I’m not just supersized, I have a big belly and small breasts, so tops don’t fit right. I have long arms and long legs for a woman, so “3/4″ or “bracelet” length sleeves stop at my elbows — and are often very tight — and all pants are flood pants. I have size 12 ww feet, so I can’t buy shoes and socks. I have a big head, so I can’t buy hats. I have big hands, so I can’t buy gloves or bangle bracelets. I can’t buy random jewellry because necklaces are too short, bracelets are too small, and rings don’t even go on my pinky past the first joint.
Reminds me of a comedien I saw on TV probably about 20 years ago. No idea what her name was. She was a plus-sized woman, and (unfortunately) part of her set was talking about how big she was but (fortunately) not in a bad way. She said:
“I actually found something that fit in a petites store the other day.”
(light bogglement from audience)
“It was a pair of earrings.”
(relieved laughter)
“Of course I had to lie down on the bed to put them on.”
Badum-bum
But the point is, the world does not fit. Never has. I know a lot of people for whom the world doesn’t fit. My brother and I can rant back and forth about this for hours. My brother is 6’3″. He’s not fat, but he’s got the same restrictions I do on clothes shopping, specialty stores or bupkus. He’s got size 15 feet. Finding shoes sucks even more for him than it does for me. At least no matter how bad it got I could find sneakers and pennyloafers, which were not sexy but did do the job. He does not know what it is like to buy a pair of gloves where the webbing in between the fingers isn’t an inch above the webbing between his fingers. Hats don’t fit him either. I haven’t asked about jewellry. He’s not that progressive.
So why? Why do gloves only come in one size? Why do hats only come in one size? Why if they keep selling out of the 4x and 5x don’t stores order more 4x and 5x to begin with?
Actually, I know the answer to that one. I’ve been told by store owners that the manufacturer will not sell them their choice of sizes. If they want a particular style, they have to get, say, a bundle of 10 of them with whatever distribution of sizes the manufacturer has already decided. And generally there’s only one 4x or 5x in the pack. But that just pushes the question back a level. Why do the manufacturers only put one in the bundle?
I don’t know, and unlike Postrel I’m not going to say “A moment’s reflection suggests there must be another explanation.” That sounds like I’m trying to justify something I’ve pulled out of my ass. My guess is that the manufacturers are doing what’s easiest for them. It’s easier to manufacture gloves in one size. It’s easier to bundle sizes together, so a store that would otherwise order 8 has to get 10. It’s easier to move all your plus-sized clothes online so you concentrate that niche market in one place and leave more floorspace in the stores for your main market.
I thought this paragraph was going to make some point about how it may be good for them but it’s bad for me and I don’t like it. I couldn’t get it to come out right, though. It’s too long since I’ve had a horse in that race for me to care about them any more.
My question is, if the world is not made to fit me, or my brother, or most of my friends, or most of the people here, who is the world made to fit? How are these companies even making money? It’s just never made sense to me. How can so many people be so dissatisfied with the stuff out there, and yet the stuff keeps selling, and the stores stay in business? I don’t get it. Something is wrong here, but I have no idea what.
IrishUp – Since you posted all the cool charts, do you know if there’s one that maps clothes sizes in the same way? Ie X percent of women are a 2, Y percent are a 10, Z percent are an 18, etc. That’s what would give a realistic idea of what the marketplace actually needs in terms of sizes.
It strikes me as wierd that it’s so hard to find that information. I mean I’ve looked…makes you wonder WHY it’s so hard to find that information.
Bigoted, lazy and trapped in insane mass market hell. It isn’t hard to make clothes that fit. It’s called professional tailoring and has been going on for quite some time now.
My question, re: the article specifically, is why do they talk in terms of weight at all?! Wouldn’t it make more sense, in terms of design, to be talking about average body proportions/structures rather than specific weight brackets?
Catatonic Kid – Yeah, that. Two women can be the same height and weight and have totally different proportions, and be totally different sizes. Over on Jezebel recently I saw people making bold generalisations like “well so a woman who’s 130 pounds would be a size 10″, and, um, how do you know that? Is she heavier on top or on the bottom? Apple or pear? Muscular or no? Bodies, they vary
@CassandraSays – Indeed. Pick a random weight out of the air, it won’t tell you a thing about what someone looks like. And it certainly won’t give you the faintest clue as to how to make a toga for someone let alone a slim-lined pair of jeans.
What part of ‘lies, damn lies and statistics’ does the Fashion industry truly find so difficult to grasp? Oh, wait, it’s their job not to care. Silly me, I forgot –
fatalistic indifference is the new black. ;)
Totally true, Catatonic Kid! My sister is probably an extreme example — but last fall, after a summer working at a job that involved some pretty intense physical labor, she told me that she weighed about 190 pounds, and was wearing a size 9/10. (And yes, you should have SEEN those biceps. Terrifying! Haha.) At 190, I think I was about a size 16, and we’re exactly the same height. I’m also sure that she’s been lighter and worn a size 14/16. Weight- size relationships are definitely not fixed.
I should do the same virtual boycotting with shoes too! I usually wear kids’ shoes, because manufacturers don’t seem to like to make size 5.5 shoes anymore (American sizes).
No kidding. I used to work in shoes in an area with a large immigrant Chinese population. Sizes under 7 were widely popular, but it was so frustrating to have to tell half my customer base that our company didn’t make shoes under a size 6. We couldn’t order them because we didn’t make them. Same with narrow sizes and extra narrow sizes, they were pretty much out of luck unless we had a few styles that fit tightly. We’d tell the company about it, and we’d get “blah blah blah profit margin blah blah” and three more truckloads of medium size 8′s that nobody bought. *scream*
What I wanna know is why oversize stores stopped selling size thirteen socks. Heck, it’s getting hard to find them in men’s stores.
I know my feet are big, but they’re not unusually big. Ugh.
I shop at Ann Taylor and Ann Taylor Loft a lot. I have their credit card. Their clothes fit me REALLY, REALLY well — about the only place where I can pick a 12 or 14 or 12 or 14 petite off the rack and IT FITS — no long sleeves, misplaced darts, etc. etc.
However — my local Ann Taylor ALWAYS runs out of my size? Why, because it’s a pretty average size.
Well — I had a meltdown the other day and stayed on the phone for HOURS, to make them honor a coupon — you had to spend $150 to save $25. Well, they didn’t have half of the items I wanted in the size and color I needed, then other items weren’t offered online, and they weren’t going to honor the coupon if it was divided between online and instore…. none of these were clearance items, they were listed as “New Items” on the web site — when I demanded to know WHY they did not stock my size more sufficiently, as there were multiples in other sizes, they said “statistically it’s not in a high demand at your store.” BULL**** — then why are they always out of the size??!!
And that is my rant — as much as it made me angry, it’s hard to let go of a store that fits my hips and doesn’t have sleeves that are too long, and jackets that are too big in the shoulders and bust…
I so LOVE having ONE STORE where I can just GO BUY A SUIT!