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If you want to discuss last night’s VP debate among Shapelings, here’s your thread. (Not exactly Friday Fluff, huh?) I wrote about it for Broadsheet this morning and have lots more to say, but I have to go turn in another post over there.
The one thing I’ll add now is that I’m stunned by how many pundits seem to think Palin came off as confident and together (apparently because, as Joan Walsh said, “her subjects and verbs corresponded”). She wasn’t full-on deer-in-headlights, but her discomfort was glaring to me — especially relative to Biden looking like he fucking owned the place. (Turns out 30 years of political experience might actually come in handy.) My friend Jeanie even pointed out that a few times, you could literally see her sweat.
What did y’all think, if you watched?
Filed under: Politics
Gah. I thought Biden was awesome, although everytime either one of them said “mankind” (as in “mankind causes global warming”) I shouted “HUMAN kind” at my computer. I also don’t want yet another president who cannot fucking pronounce nuclear.
As far as actual issues, Palin wasn’t exactly as stupid as I was hoping, in that she obviously does well with the cram and spew method of test taking. But I have to admit, I was hoping that she would be as terrible as she was on Couric.
Palin reminds me of nothing so much as a student who has only read Cliffs Notes (or SparkNotes, my age is showing!) and then has to answer questions in class. She’s got a few talking points, but anything that asks her to think beyond them can’t work because she hasn’t read the damn book. It’s a shame the format didn’t allow for followup questions, because I would have liked to see Ifill do some Couric-style “But can you give a specific answer” questions. Palin was the student who managed not to run out of the classroom in tears, but who was not fooling the teacher or the kids who did the reading.
I just can’t handle the fact that Palin kept swaggering off on previous topics after the prompter brought up a new one.
I’m not sure asking for follow-ups would have even helped since she plainly stated at the beginning she wasn’t necessarily going to answer the questions posed to her. And boy did she come through on that promise. Look, I work in PR and have taught many people how to artfully dodge questions. But there is a limit (for example, you run the risk of not looking like you understand the concept of a debate if give your canned tax answer to every conceivable topic).
But the Couric interviews really lowered the bar–if she didn’t stare off into space as her non-sensical sentences trailed off into mumbles, the debate would be hailed as a big win! And we’re seeing a fair amount of that in the papers today.
But the absolute worst was the winking into the camera–REALLY? Winking?? This is a debate, not a video dating service.
This is what I wrote on my blog last night: Biden kicked ass. I’m still afraid that the people who were looking for a reason to like Palin’s soundbites will. She’s pretty and she manages to make the blather sound articulate if you’re not really paying attention to it or the questions that were asked. She apparently has no ability to have a conversation, but she is good at talking *at* people, and that’s what she did here.
I was also impressed by Biden - I feel a lot better about him after this. At first, when he started to talk about ‘don’t say I don’t understand because I’m a man’ I was ready to cringe, but he turned it around by talking about being a single father and basically called b.s. on the whole only republicans love their kids and understand regular folks crap.
As a writing teacher, Palin seemed not just like a crammer but someone who writes incoherent sentences because they’re trying to reach for an authority in their writing they can’t yet pull off.
But most of all, since I teach writing at a community college, same as Jill Biden, I’m really, really happy to know I’m getting my reward in heaven.
I have several observations about last night’s debate.
“Maverick.” You keep saying that word. I dinna think it means what you think it means. If i hear it one more time, i think i’m going to develop a nervous twitch under my eyeball.
The part where Biden choked up, where he’d just said that he knew what it was like to wonder if your child was going to make it? He was able to pull himself back together and not burst into tears on national television. BUT, when Palin started talking again (~1-2 minutes later), she gave no evidence that she had noticed what had just happened. She showed no empathy, no sympathy - there was no change in her obviously-practiced perkiness. I was horrified by her reaction (or rather, lack thereof).
If i hadn’t already decided? That moment would have completely done it for me.
Also: if someone cannot PRONOUNCE “nuclear” correctly, they shouldn’t have the nuclear codes.
I had to turn the debate off because I completely went off on her comment about “tolerating gays.” I say a hearty “Fuck You” to Sarah Palin for that. It’s fundamentalist Christian code speak for “hate the sin, love the sinner.” I’m tired of hearing her talk about how her “best friend” is gay. I don’t “tolerate” my best friends, I love them. I defend them. In many cases I would lay down my life for them or their children. I certainly don’t spew about their “lifestyle” on national TV to gain political points. While I’m sorry that Obama/Biden can’t/won’t/don’t support gay marriage I was pleased to hear Biden say that they would work on civil remedies. I’ll take that. If they want to redefine marriage as a religious ceremony, that works for me.
If in a debate, the debator refuses to answer questions, the entire citizenry of the US should be offended. It is the one CLEAN process we have for hearing what they think, and what they’ll do, ON THE ISSUES. If you can’t trust a candidate to do a simple thing like answer questions, what kind of honesty, integrity and intelligence do you think she’ll bring to the executive table?
And let’s not even talk about how much of a cartoon character she is. I have to admit I am glad she wont’ sit down with leaders of other countries because if she did, she’d just wink and cluck at them and start dropping her “Gs” and offend them this passive aggressive I’m just like you and me garbage.
Biden may have been boring, but I learned more in 90 minutes from Biden than I have learned about the policies and differences of each of the candidates in this entire campaign by reading blogs, NYT, and “whatever they put in front of me. I read it all.” The man is smart, and so should our presidents be. Palin clearly didn’t even know what half the words the moderator was using meant, and it was OBVIOUS.
God help us all on Nov. 4.
I am really put off by Palin’s consistent refusal to answer the questions and to continue to read from whatever script she had in her head (Cliffs Notes indeed!). I’m admittedly no expert on debates, but I think the controversy surrounding the moderater and her upcoming book did a disservice to the debate by possibly keeping her from forcing Palin to actually answer the questions asked. I could be wrong.
I also giver Palin a big F for her response to the climate change question while Biden nailed it with the fact that if you don’t know what causes it, how do you propose to fix it? (My job is indirectly related to carbon emissions reduction projects, so I am hot on this issue).
I also got a little tipsy with my buddy and our “Maverick/Hockey Mom/Doggoneit/Up in Alaska” drinking game. :D
lt, I couldn’t take that “reward is in heaven” line. I yelled at the TV, “HOW ABOUT SOME REWARDS HERE ON EARTH!!” Rewards in heaven don’t pay the rent.
This
Say it ain’t so, Joe, there you go again pointing backwards again. You preferenced your whole comment with the Bush administration. Now doggone it, let’s look ahead and tell Americans what we have to plan to do for them in the future.
made me want to hurl.
It’s easy to exceded expectations when expectations are so low. I find it ridiculous she refused to answer the questions that were asked of her - I think everyone who watched the debate should be offended. Her folksy talk and behavior was a complete turnoff for me. I WANT a vice president (and president) who is smarter than me - that’s why they make the big decisions. I’m afraid that I have more knowledge that Palin - and I am admittedly woefully ignorant of econmics and foregin affairs.
I was happy Pailin did her reading and was prepared for this one. She managed to prove that even someone with a uterus can handle the pressure of debating on camera, unfiltered and with no previous knowledge of the specific questions (way to go on lobbing them the “What do you have to change in your platform because of the economy? question Gwen; I was stammering with your delivery of that one).
In any case she’s proven that she has higher-reasoning capabilities, and can connect previous knowledge to present situations effectively. Which is actually much harder than it sounds when put on the spot and in full knowledge that thousands of people are waiting for you to make a mistake.
What got me about her delivery though was how much she cuted herself up for the camera, O.mi.gosh.don.cha.know.gahd.bless.her.heart.
There’s nothing wrong with accents, but the second in command should not be able to be described as cute. I know its all part of playing to the electorate as an everyday, down to earth kind of person who is easily realated to, but it seemed like she was just aching to put those regional linguistic tics in there - sell herself as a lovable PTA mom who just might have some influence. It is a fantasy to all level-headed PTA moms out there who just want things done right.
WAIT! DID YOU SEE HER SHOES?
Because it turns out that a picture of her shoes jumped to the #1 picture emailed on Yahoo, last night.
Weirdo-foot-fetishists. It’s a debate, not porn. Or am I wrong on this one?
See, I thought it was pretty even. I don’t like her at all (did you catch that she said the constitution allows for a stronger role than Dick Cheney has played?) but she toned down the obnoxious meanness, kept to stuff she could sound good on, and made complete sentences.
She definitely was trying to spin her non-answering style as rebellious cool straight talk whatever, and I do worry that it worked.
On the other hand, I was pretty neutral on Biden but his choked-up moment made me *cry*. And he seemed kind of off-balance after that, too - he started using a lot bigger words, among other things.
I wish when the moderator asked about his disagreements with Obama earlier, he had said something strong like “I play to win, and I can be outspoken, but I can still work with people I’ve disagreed with in the past.”
I can’t understand people who are claiming Palin as victorious simply because she didn’t fail miserably. There was a clear winner.
Well, she “won” in that she had prefabbed talking points that never varied, and had the sense to not ad lib or directly answer questions. So, whether she did well is like believing that you really saw a beautiful lady in a blue gown standing in a grotto: If you think you did, than you did. If you think it’s a crock, then that’s what you saw.
What chips women off is that she is the embodiment of what lots of women-hating men want to see in a woman: an undeserving, unqualified dope who trades on her cuteness. One poster on Fark (natch) said: if she ended by saying, “God bless America, I’m not wearing any panties,” I’d vote for her.”
‘Nuff said.
I accidentally napped through the debate, which is probably a good thing as I just can’t control what listening to her makes my brain do, and it makes me feel like a very, very bad feminist.
DEAR SARUH, PLS TO GO POLISH UR TIARA N SHOOT MOOSEZ AND LEEV GOVT TO TEH SMRT PEEPUL. KTHX. <—for example.
A friend who knows livestock says that a “maverick” is an animal with poor survival instincts, because it wanders away from the herd and puts itself and the herd in danger. You want to get the mavericks BACK in the herd or else all hell breaks loose.
I told her she really needed to write that up into an editorial, like, RIGHT NOW.
I could see her bangs shaking. I thought she was nervous.
She really rambled on about her family and her small town. I didn’t know if she did that to win points for folksiness, or she was just trying to run out her clock and not get stuck on something tough.
maewyn -
Yeah, I was laughing to keep from crying. Funny thing that she also said teachers should get paid more. Guess she didn’t get the memo about evil teacher’s unions. And she also said something pretty close to saying she supported civil unions. She’s like an 18 year old who’s ennamored with conservatism and likes saying the words but doesn’t really understand the full concepts she’s signing onto.
I was delighted when Biden decided to take on the “maverick” meme (video here). About time.
**OT***
Ahhh! Seriously. I am a new asst. prof this semester, and my MENTOR just opened my door (no knock) and asked if I wanted to go to lunch. I said no thanks, I am eating a poptart. She said, “Oh, really healthy! And a coke!” I smiled! I seriously fucking smiled! what the hell is wrong with me? Now I can’t stop being pissed, at her and myself. I can tell this will be one of those days where I keep thinking of awesome comebacks all day long. Or at least imagining a scenario where I didn’t SMILE when someone looked at my lunch and commented on it.
thanks for letting me get it out.
*yawn* There was a debate?
;)
I am debated out right now (got home at 8 again, although to be fair this time we got a mad jones for omelettes and went to the diner around 6). I will say that I discovered last night that I do a fierce Sarah Palin impression, which is a skill I shall put to use. It is not as good as my Kenley from Project Runway impression, which is just sort of a nasal drone in the back of my throat.
DEAR SARUH, PLS TO GO POLISH UR TIARA N SHOOT MOOSEZ AND LEEV GOVT TO TEH SMRT PEEPUL. KTHX. <—for example.
That’s awesome. I had nightmares about Palin last night, and I’ve been shaking with fear at work all day. When Palin said she would “tolerate” TEH GAYZ, her tone of voice betrayed her–what she meant was that she would continue to despise “those people.” It’s insulting, too, that she constantly insinuates that sexual orientation is a choice, and a bad one at that. I mean, she should sympathize with “those people.” She’s in a similar situation–she didn’t just choose to be a fucking idiot, she was born that way.
Y’know, when Obama picked Biden for VP, I was frankly disappointed, but after the debate, I’m behind him. He actually sounds like he knows what he’s doing, he was civil, articulate, and he has a great track record on behalf of women. Go Joe!
I think your
BINGOPALIN was bogus! She talked about “creating jobs” but didn’t actually say “job creation.” My co-watcher disallowed me from taking that one on my card. :)(However, card 4 did ultimately win, once she said “homeland” - got a 5-across. Me, I was stuck waiting for her to say “earmark” so I could get the top row on my card!)
And in other responses, my stomach turned when Palin said “considered as blah blah blah” instead of “considered to be,” because it’s a mistake my students make all the time in their writing and it drives me nuts.
Also, “we’re gonna clean up that greed and corruption on Wall Street.” Six times? Seven? Mostly in response to questions that had nothing to do with the economy/bailout? Fortunately the polls of uncommitted voters seemed to indicate that they were as non-plussed by her lack of specifics as I was.
We tried watching, even had our Palin Bingo cards and were rapidly filling them up. But hubby got seriously disgusted after 15-20 minutes of Palin not answering the questions and we watched the Simpsons epis we had on the DVR for the rest of the evening.
WTF was the moment where Palin said she supports a two-state solution for Israel, but with Jerusalem as the capital??? I don’t care what you believe about Israel/Palestine, the combination of those two things DOES NOT COMPUTE.
And no way, no how does her base support a two-state solution. All those end-time fundamentalists like Hagee think giving Palestine sovereignty will delay the Apocalypse. Right-wing Jews like Lieberman, whom she’s trying to court, think that a two-state solution - at least one agreed to so blithely - rewards terrorism.
And left-wing Jews, lots of whom *do* support a two-state solution, of course are already voting for Barak Obama. (Damn straight!!! :) )
That was a terrible answer for her to give, and it made me think she had absolutely no fucking clue what “two-state solution” means. Not good. Not good at all.
I only watched about 30% off and on because I was sewing, but here’s a couple of things that made me boggle:
1) Palin said “promped up” at some point, I can’t remember what it was about because my hearing turned off while I was trying to figure out WTF she meant.
2) She also said that the Nuclear option is “the be all to end all” when I think she meant “lats resort” or something… I don’t think be all to end all was what she was trying to say.
3) She need to control her facial features, she was constantly doing the raised eyebrow sarc “oh really look” that made me want to puke. Although Biden did a real heavy sigh at one point so I guess they could both work on containing their reactions. However if I were Biden I would have been sighing and rolling my eyes and raising my eyebrows and calling her an idiot to her face… so I can empathize with him.
No no, Lexy, she said that about the NUCULAR option. There is totally a difference.
Laura, really good point about the Israel comment. Cause hey, gotta prevent a second holocaust, right? *bangs keyboard*
When Biden finally went off on McCain not being a maverick I was cheering. About fucking time someone said that loud and clear.
I may be the only conservative who reads this blog and I have never commented before (I figure I will be eaten alive if I do) but here goes.
I think Palin did quite well. In fact, I would say that both candidates did great. That’s what I really want in a debate - both candidates to present their positions without spending all their time attacking each other. Attack each other’s positions and plans - sure. But ad hominem attacks are not productive. I would say that personal attacks also aren’t productive when engaged in by supporters of one side or another.
I think that the debate in many ways was a tie - Biden did well, but considering the extremely low expectations for Palin I think that she ‘won’ because she exceeded those expectations. It’s the fault of all those who said she was ‘just a caribou barbie’ that when she wasn’t it was a huge positive.
I like Palin. I like her positions, I like her personality, I like her life story. I am looking forward to voting for her this year, and hopefully in the future.
I also like this blog - even though I disagree with many of the positions espoused here (I absolutely NOT a ‘feminist’) I like reading about all the topics covered and gaining insight to different perspectives. Thanks for the great blog and all your great work on it.
Volcanista- haha, good call, the NUCULAR option is the be all to end all… my bad.
Off topic-ish… I was watching last night with a few non-native English speakers. We put the closed-captioning on to make it all a little easier to understand. Clearly whoever writes up the captions had never heard the term “folksy” and as such continued to write about Palin’s “foxy charm” over and over…
Like many who have already commented, I was very frustrated with her evasiveness and desire to make her own rules as she went along. It was obvious that she was just going to skip the questions she had no clue about and beat the drum of energy and taxes.
Her “folksy” approach (which I think is completely faked, btw) reinforces for me that she has no business anywhere near the Oval Office. Can you picture her sitting down to a meeting with a foreign leader?
SP: Oh, hello Mr. ForeignLeader. Isn’t your suit just precious! I’m the Vice-President, don’cha know, and we’re gonna have a nice chat, you and me…
I don’t believe it for a second. It’s an act so that people look at her and think that she is just like them. Well, here’s a news flash - I’m not a “hockey mom” or a “soccer mom” and my husband is not freaking “Joe Six-Pack.” We’re just every day tax-paying citizens who are concerned for the future we’re leaving our child.
Notable things that make me go “dur?” at Palin:
She smiled the whole time, even while talking about horrible things like genocide, except when she struggled to talk about gay marriage: her face dropped and she looked SO uncomfortable. (By the way I wish the dems would stop with this civil liberties but no marriage for gays crap as well!)
Nucular? WTF????
STOP SAYING THE WORD MAVERICK! Also, you can’t have a “Team of Mavericks.” That doesn’t even make sense.
I think it is lame that people think she did well simply because she didn’t make a total fool of herself, but the one time when she so ridiculously clearly went into Miss South Carolina territory was when she was asked about global warming and ended up spouting the most random, non-nonsensical crap I’ve ever heard that wasn’t really even in line with what Republicans are about (or so I think, because I’m not even sure what she was talking about!)
All I can say is that if Harper (canadian) wins our election, and McCain/Palin win yours the world is going to fucking END. That’ll be it; game over, man.
Mary Martha: Thanks for reading and commenting and not being a horrible troll. As for being a woman and not a feminist, that makes my brain hurt but whatever. Your choice to label yourself, or not, as you see fit.
When she winked at the camera I almost threw my drink at my TV. I mean, I get taht she’s trying to seem accessible and all, but I do not want a Vice president who winks at me. I really don’t.
I liked Joe Biden a lot more than I expected to.
Every time I heard the word “Maverick,” my middle finger, all on its own, presented itself to the screen. If I ever meet her in real life, I might have a hard time keeping it under control.
Also, I have a co-worker who grew up in Alaska, about 5 miles from Wasilla, and she has NEVER heard anyone around there speak like Sarah Palin.
A couple of completely non-substantive points:
1) Biden’s got a hot-old-man thing going, kind of a Clint Eastwood vibe. I had not before realized how attractive he was, even though I did not get an email with pictures of his shoes, which makes me kind of disappointed.
2) I thought it was kind of annoying how Palin was going out of her way to show how much she agreed with Biden: Yay! We both love Israel!! Yay! We both blow the “One Man One Woman” dog whistle about those homosexuals!!
3) I also thought that Biden was holding back, there were a few mistakes that Palin made that he obviously caught. I’m sure his handlers had coached him on walking that fine line between winning and looking like you are beating up on the “girl.”
bellacoker:
1) Yes! My roommate’s first reaction to Biden was, “Wow! He has a really hot voice!”
and The Mavericks play basketball in Dallas.
I listened. I didn’t watch, I listened. Which means that I missed the winking and the sweating and the new highlights and a number of the visual cues that almost everyone has been talking about. What I heard was this: several long answers from Biden that, while sometimes got a bit too technical or even a little rough, felt and sounded like thoughtful responses. Palin sounded downright rehearsed. The difference between the sound of their voices and the sound of their responses was staggering.
I can’t imagine how Tina Fey is going to lampoon this on SNL. Palin just lampooned herself.
Someone explain to me how Sarah Palin gets to call herself a Maverick. If you’re a Bible-believing woman who is anti-choice, anti-gay and pro intelligent design, exactly what system is she bucking?
Because backing up the patriarchy with fundamentalist Old World theology and a shotgun, while pandering to a political movement that is too male, too pale and too stale doesn’t a maverick make.
Also, Ms. Palin needs to wake up and understand that you pretty much can’t run for public office and then hide from the Fourth Estate.
We’re the press. You’re the candidate. In the name of liberty, we own you.
Cindy, the past couple of months have convinced me that “maverick” means “a person who tries to maintain a position of authority despite being batshit crazy, and whose handlers are unwiling to reveal the depths of the crazy to themselves or to outsiders”.
This makes “a team of mavericks” the LAST group I would want to vote for, because they all reinforce each other’s crazy.
Biden’s got a hot-old-man thing going, kind of a Clint Eastwood vibe. I had not before realized how attractive he was,
Bellacoker, um, *cough* I might just be the “friend” who said, “I’m falling in love with Joe Biden” here. I also might have given her that line about the imminent “I’ve got a crush on Joe Biden” video.
I luffed him last night. And I gotta give Obama credit for the pick, ’cause boy howdy was I skeptical when he first announced it. I’ve been warming to Biden ever since, but last night, I was actually a little warm for Biden. “VPILF” has a whole new meaning.
“Also, Ms. Palin needs to wake up and understand that you pretty much can’t run for public office and then hide from the Fourth Estate.
We’re the press. You’re the candidate. In the name of liberty, we own you.”
I think that attitude is why conservatives (like myself) increasingly dislike much of the press (and are actively shunning it) and because the ‘fourth estate’ has an inflated sense of their own importance.
She doesn’t need to deal with the press if she doesn’t want to. Why would she deal with them when so many of them have made their dislike of her so very clear.
What she can’t do is hide from the people - the voters.
Palin made a point of saying in the debate that she appreciated the debate gave her to opportunity to “to speak directly to Americans without that filter of mainstream media”. After the games played with editing it’s no wonder that she would rather speak directly to the people.
The press doesn’t own our politicians - the people do. I think that Sarah Palin - and all the candidates should focus on speaking to the people - instead of tailoring their positions and persona to garner the approval of the press.
Cindy/Maewyn:
From my prespective, it looks like Maverick means “unpredictable.”
Like, whoo whoo, you don’t know what I’m gonna do next, suspend my campaign, haha you didn’t see that coming, but I was joking, I suspend that suspension. For my next trick, tadah, pick a fight with Spain, haha!! Did you see what I did there? You were all worried about Iran, but I head-butted Spain, that’s some maverickal misdirection!!
Also not really attractive in a President.
mary martha, thanks again for not being a horrible troll. That said, how the hell, short of getting every single voter in America to attend a personal appearance at which they lay out every aspect of their platform in every single said appearance, are the candidates supposed to interact with the American public without the press/media? Hate to break it to Palin, but the televised debates? Still mainstream media. Just sayin’.
Being Canadian, I’m just an outside observer of things. I didn’t see either debate (our English debate last night, too), since I was at work.
Reading the posts and comments here, as well as many other places, I can’t help but shake my head. Wasn’t it here, just recently, that there was a long discussion of anecdotes in response to the claim that women are crueler to other women than men could possibly be? My personal experiences happen to agree with that statement. Purely anecdotal, of course, but seeing and reading the incredible backlash against Palin by other women has done more to prove that point true than any of my personal experiences. I mean really… Palin bingo cards? Go polish your tiara? Not to mention the disgusting comments like that Canadian columnist, or that comedian that hoped Palin would be gang raped, among other things.
I find it strange to read all these comments bashing Palin’s performance during the debate, yet not a single person seems to have caught that Biden outright lied at least 14 times during the debate.
Oops… I just looked it up to include a link, and the list is now up to 22. This is just one of a number of articles about it.
I guess some prejudices are ok, so long as they’re against women who don’t believe the same way folks here do?
As to the word maverick, this is the cattleman’s description I know of. Most cattle, when hit with strong storm winds, turn their backs to the wind and give way, eventually getting crowded against a fence or some other obstruction, where they get trapped and sometimes freeze to death. Maverick cattle turn their heads *into* the wind, facing the storm and refusing to let it drive them to their deaths. (The cows we had as I was growing up, on the other hand, would go to the large shelter we built for them, but then we never had more than a small herd.)
Kristin - I’m in a similar situation and I’ve been very careful about what I’ve said and done. Kind of a pick your battles thing. Though I know exactly what you mean about that kind of moment. There are a lot of ways to fire off a comeback that wouldn’t have been offensive but you won’t think of them for another 2 hours!
I’m REALLY starting to doubt if I want to be a teacher any longer than this academic year.
On the debate, I give you the shorter version:
Biden: Here are a lot of facts to back up my points that I know by heart.
Palin: I’m from Alaska! Yahsure ya betcha! *wink*
DRST
Honestly, and not just as a response to Mary Martha, I think every American should be required to read the part of the US Constitution that explains the constitutional role of the president. What the president can and cannot do is set forth pretty clearly. If you actually read the Constitution, you realize that people who are by and large ignorant of the world and world politics do not fit the job description. Bush is a case in point. By the way, its Article 2, Section 2 and you can google it.
Mary Martha, ditto what killedbyllamas said. I really appreciate that you’re willing to share your views here without spoiling for a fight, despite it being a very liberal space. But honestly, I was offended by her saying she was going to speak “directly to the American people,” because it came on the heels of her saying she wouldn’t answer the questions the way “they wanted her to” — and the rest of her performance showed that meant she wouldn’t answer questions she didn’t like, period. I don’t think changing the subject as it suits you is fair play in a debate.
Having said that, I also can’t stand her positions and strongly belief she’s woefully underqualified, so I’m not predisposed to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, killed, I agree. This isn’t the 1850’s where candidates can do whistle-stop tours at every small-town depot. It’s an enormous and diverse nation. So, marymartha, how else is a candidate supposed to speak to “the people” except via media. And while I don’t like the “we own you” language (mostly because I just generally dislike that kind of terminology applied to humans, even as a witticism), I *do* think the “fourth estate” is super-important. There’s a reason that a free, no-holds-barred media apparatus was so important to America’s founders: without it, look at what happens–China’s a good example. The notion that candidates can somehow speak directly to the people is, I think, not helpful in this day and age. Besides, I don’t at all get the sense that the media has already expressed its intense dislike of her–mostly she’s been the subject of intense coverage because she’s such an unknown, with so little experience. People are hungry to know more.
Oh, Kate!!
I don’t really have a physical type, but I cannot resist a guy that is useful. Biden just seems to be able to get things done, mmmm . . . and I think he mentioned hanging out at the Home Depot, so maybe he likes to fix things, as well.
Mary Martha:
A well-informed populace is necessary for the democracy to work, and the media is the way that we are able to stay informed. If all we had to help us make decisions were the press releases put out by candidates and corporations, we would soon be snacking on deadly chemicals under the watchful eye of a (more) self-interested body of government.
Perhaps conservatives are upset by the media because they have been making poor choices in their candidates. Surely there are conservative leaders whose morals, intelligence and leadership would stand up and appear genuine under the hot glare of the spotlight. That individual would garner a lot of support from liberals and conservatives alike, like, I don’t know, Billy Graham or that guy Dave Ramsey. We do not believe the same things, but I cannot argue that they come across as good people. Just saying . . .
bellacoker, I concur that conservatives are upset with the media because their candidates just don’t look good without the ridiculous spin generated in their favor by Fox News or talk radio, for example. The vast majority of screaming about ‘liberal media’ occurs, at least in my limited powers of observation, when mainstream media decide that either a conservative doing dumb shit or a liberal doing something competent, instead of vice-versa, is news.
(I know I’ve seen a study discounting liberal bias in this campaign season, but I can’t find it at the moment. Anyone?)
“But honestly, I was offended by her saying she was going to speak “directly to the American people,” because it came on the heels of her saying she wouldn’t answer the questions the way “they wanted her to” — and the rest of her performance showed that meant she wouldn’t answer questions she didn’t like, period. I don’t think changing the subject as it suits you is fair play in a debate.”
I think that the line about not answering questions ‘the way they wanted her to’ was in reference to the fact that she was a bit outnumbered on that stage… with both the other people having a financial and professional interest in the success of the Obama/Palin campaign.
You may not believe that Ifill’s book is evidence of lack of objectivity - but I think that it is not unreasonable to question Ifills’ selection to be a moderator (let me be clear that I generally think Ifill did a fine job and I do think she is a fine journalist).
I would say that changing the subject when the question doesn’t suit you is a long established tactic in political debates. Both sides do it and it is frustrating sometimes but can also be illuminating (what questions do they avoid, what do they push into every answer).
If Palin didn’t change the subject upon occasion the debate would have focused on Biden’s strengths (foreign policy) without giving Palin a chance to show her strengths (energy policy). Sometimes if you aren’t given the opportunity to shine by the moderator - you have to make it.
Just a note about Biden’s command of ‘facts’ nobody has commented on this thread about the number of facts that Biden got wrong (ie - the US and France didn’t kick Hezbollah out of Lebanon). I think in that circumstance it is understandable - when speaking extemporaneously about complex issues mistakes will happen. However, I have seen very little in the media correcting his mistakes.
As to the question of how candidates can connect with voters without depending on the media… that’s hard. The national media has set themselves up as a choke point where they are the gatekeepers who define how information is relayed, and what information is relayed.
The key is to use local media, direct contact, person to person connections and alternative media in conjunction with advertising. Technology gives campaigns (on both sides) great opportunities to connect directly with the voters that didn’t exist 10 years ago.
The stranglehold that the large national media has on information is fading. Look at the numbers - newspapers are dying (both in revenue and circulation), the viewership of network news is declining and increasingly younger people do not get their information from those traditional sources.
It is entirely possible to be well informed without depending on the national media for your information. I agree that a well informed populace is necessary, I just think that depending on the national media for your information does not necessarily make one well informed.
“There’s a reason that a free, no-holds-barred media apparatus was so important to America’s founders: without it, look at what happens”
Here is where we may disagree. I do think that the media is free - I just think that they do not report in a no holds barred fashion. Some stories are big (Palin’s daughter’s preganancy) some stories are not (Biden’s son being sued for fraud). I am not saying that either of those stories necessarily merit coverage - but it is interesting which ones are downplayed.
Wow, I just wrote a book length reply. Sorry about that.
Again, I do like the blog and appreciate all the work that goes into it. As a fat woman in Chicago (yes, I may be the only conservative in Cook County) I really appreciate your voice. I understand that most people here disagree with me and that is why I have never commented before. I guess today I was just feeling like a different perspective might be good on this post.
I should add here that obviously, I have my own issues with the media. What we’ve got is by no means a perfect — or even very reliable — truth delivery system. But I also find the concept of the Evil Librul Media utterly ridiculous. I only wish the “liberal media” would hold politicians’ feet to the fire.
I should also note that I was posting that while Mary Martha was writing her most recent comment, not in response to it.
Mary Martha–I’m a liberal prof at a fairly conservative university; I spend most of my life exhausted from the tightrope I have to walk every single day. (I’ve been treated quite badly by conservatives, too–I was called a pagan by one of my colleagues, among other things). So I appreciate your effort to participate in a civil conversation with people who don’t agree with you. I know what that’s like, and I applaud you for it. I wish these kinds of conversations happened more frequently. Obviously, you and I don’t agree on much when it comes to Palin (e.g. she “shines” on energy policy?! Yikes!), but I do think it’s a good thing when people make an honest effort to participate in, learn from, and engage with those who differ from them. It’s the way diversity is supposed to work:)
Kate, I whole-heartedly agree about the existence of this liberal media kabal. I’m not exaggerating when I say that my reporter friends are literally the most politically even-minded people I know. If they aren’t all technically registered Independents (and actually, I think they might be), then they certainly act like it. They’re switch hitters–voting either side of the aisle depending on the candidate, and they take the call to write without bias very seriously (even if, as you’ve pointed out, this isn’t technically possible).
To those who believe in an evil media kabal: Don’t mistake the yacking heads on TV for journalists–those are pundits. Though pundits may be journalists, journalism and punditry are two separate things.
Sumac, as the daughter of a print journalist who covers politics, I’ve always had the same impression. There are exceptions and they’re bad and we should watch out for them - and objectivity is impossible - but most journalists I know attempt to be fair to a fault. It’s a calling for them, not something they manipulate to serve their Evil Liberal Agenda.
What I cannot understand is what Palin MEANT by juxtaposing:
“It’s Predatory Lenders”
- and her stress that this needs to be cleaned up
- with a platform espousing more free market solutions.
Newsflash: it wasn’t Congress who was being predatory. It was a deregulated, NON-governmentally controlled, Free Market.
If she, like most Neo-Con republicans, (which is not the same as old style small government fiscal conservatives, for whom I have respectful disagreement), believes that the unregulated market WORKS, then:
-> There is no such thing as predatory lending here - there was no lack of detail available on these contracts, if you are of the belief that caveat emptor in the fine print is fair, and people are able to make the “best” choice, as they do with, for example, HMOs, then there was nothing Predatory. This is how people make money. End of fucking story.
and
-> There is no goddamn reason to bail a bank out.
(and… for Mary… There is no such thing as UNWANTED media bias. That’s a “good government” thing to say, you crazy librul, you.
For a free market, we get what people want and what they’ll pay for. Which, if you are seeing liberal media and there’s no barriers to publication - which there “shouldn’t be” in a non-monopoly situation - that means it’s because everyone else is voting with their money and they’re more ‘progressive’ than you. Fox news is more conservative than me.
Which is why the social conservative/neo-con economic systems are such odd bedfellows to me. In the neo-con system, if gay folks and their supporters have more money and therefore are a demographic block that advertisers want watching TV in prime time, then by golly, because the market determined it.)
The free market model is simple: people get what they choose, out of a market that offers what choices it offers, and the market will be creative enough to offer something new if people want it. And if it’s not good for them, they won’t choose it. And if they DO choose it, and have their futures blown up from their mistakes, well they need to take responsibility.
That’s it. That’s all. So how someone can bitch about predatory lending and follow the Free Market Fairy at the same time drives me nuts: THE FREE MARKET FAIRY MADE THE PREDATORY LENDING. That’s what she does, and she’ll do it anywhere she is allowed to, unregulated.
It’s working the way it’s supposed to: housing inventory is massive, now. Supply and demand. This is the way this theory works.
The free market supposes that people are able to act in their own best interests, and it supposes that the market will create that for which there is demand. Period. (And it may even be true, if you don’t mind a certain amount of destabilization, poverty, rioting, and death of the poor.)
WTF was the moment where Palin said she supports a two-state solution for Israel, but with Jerusalem as the capital???
Argh. I have been listening to politicians of all stripes pander to Jewish voters by assuming we’re all diehard Likudniks for the last 30-ish years now, and I really wish they’d all shut up. Most reform/renewal/reconstructionist Jews (and that is most American Jews) are NOT Likudniks and want a two-state solution. And like you said, Laura, that statement is even more full-of-WTF than most; saying you want a two-state solution with Jerusalem as the capital is like saying you want to be vegan and own a KFC franchise. Doing SOME homework is sometimes more dangerous than not doing ANY. Unless, of course, Palin meant the “Jerusalem” line as some kind of code for the armageddocrats…shudder.
Also, what’s with the winking shit? I’ve been told Bush has been doing that sort of thing on TV for a while now but since I can’t stand the sound of his whiny voice and haven’t been watching lately, I couldn’t tell you. And no, I don’t think it’s an involuntary tic, either. If it was involuntary, she’d be winking in the middle of sentences, not at the end.
Arwen,
You’ve totally hit upon a really important tension within the Republican party. The total, all-out free market policy also makes for an uncomfortable bed-fellow with right-wing religious ideology (for the same reasons you already noted). Til recently, they’ve been connected, but I suspect that, with the total breakdown of the economy, that relationship, too, will soon become even less comfortable.
I would just like to say that I’m REALLY sick of people picking on how Palin and Bush talk– BECAUSE the way we speak is a cultural artifact. I am from the South and I have an accent– I am not stupid.
Bush is stupid because he is stupid. Not because he has an accent. Palin is a douchebag because she is a douchebag. She pronounces “Nuclear” probably the same way millions of people who do not speak the language of the wider communication pronounce it.
Having said that, I think that since Palin says she’s doing such a good job being Govenor of Alaska, we should let her keep doing that.
Obama/Biden 08!!
Also, can I tell you how much I loathe the idea that being President or VP is nothing more than some sixth-grade popularity contest and any “Joe Six-Pack” can do it? If that’s the case, why bother having elections at all? Why bother building any sort of political career or studying law or government at all, even on the self-study level, if knowledge and expertise are bad? Why don’t we just have a lottery for those jobs every 4 years, that anyone 35+ will be entered into unless they specifically opt out? GAAAH.
You wouldn’t let someone fix your car — or your teeth — just because they had a nice smile and a wrench. You’d demand that they actually knew what they were doing and could prove it, wouldn’t you?
Why don’t we just have a lottery for those jobs every 4 years, that anyone 35+ will be entered into unless they specifically opt out?
Sadly, I am not 100% convinced this would be worse than our current system. Hmm.
On a side note, I have a question for the knowledgable about the two-state solution and Jerusalem as a capital. Why is this contradictory? I mean, I know why it wouldn’t necessarily be desirable, but isn’t it pretty common for people to think that Gaza and the West Bank should be a state and that Israel should retain Jerusalem? Or am I totally mixed up about the labels?
mary martha, could you clarify what you mean when you wrote that you are not a feminist?
this: http://tomatonation.com/?p=677 is one of my favorite articles/rants on feminism, and it defines a feminist as someone who believes in political/social/economic equality of the sexes. by that definition, it’s hard for me to understand a woman can identify as “not a feminist.”
however, you may be working from a different definition of feminist.
i realize this is totally off topic, but i’d still love to hear your view if you have the time/energy to write it out.
The key is to use local media, direct contact, person to person connections and alternative media in conjunction with advertising. Technology gives campaigns (on both sides) great opportunities to connect directly with the voters that didn’t exist 10 years ago.
mary martha, do you see the McCain/Palin campaign doing this? I’m curious if Palin has made herself available to local media in a way that hasn’t been picked up on by the national media.
This question is for everybody: does “Joe Sixpack” seem classist to you? It really rubs me the wrong way but I’ve never heard anyone called on it. It certainly seems less politically neutral than “John Q Public” (which is still, of course, not neutral gender-wise).
yellowhammer- I hate the way Bush says nuclear because, at least to me, it seems like he does it on purpose….like, fuck you, I know how it’s pronounced, but I am doggone downhome, and I will say it like I please. And I feel like his whole persona is artificial. Regardless, when people want to lead the nation, I don’t think it is too much to ask that they know how to correctly pronounce the word nuclear. Whether we like it or not, we are judged on how we speak (and write, so I am probably not doing so well :)
kunoichi, I approved your comment but I’m letting you know that you are skirting troll lines. This did not happen here, no would we stand for such a thing: “Not to mention the disgusting comments like that Canadian columnist, or that comedian that hoped Palin would be gang raped, among other things.” Being a feminist does not mean you can’t criticize other women; it means you stand for women’s equality and that you are against oppression against women for being women. I’m against Sarah Palin not because she’s a woman, or even because she presents her femininity in a certain way, but because I think she’s dead wrong on important issues and dangerously underqualified to be Vice President.
And for what it’s worth, both candidates stretched the truth extensively last night. I recommend reading FactCheck’s article on this — it’s an explicitly nonpartisan source, unlike the National Review.
You’re welcome to engage in the discussion here, but if you comment again attributing things to us that haven’t been said here, you’ll be banned.
SM, it rubs me the wrong way too. The mental image it calls to mind for me is, oddly enough, Carl from Aquateen Hunger Force, and thus it seems like a totally classist and disrespectful way to speak of the so-called average American. Random cartoon characters aside, it relies on probably-negative stereotypes of certain demographics.
Sarah @ f-words posted this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3JVzb9E0Ms
McCain’s big plan for rural health? Exercise. And for the fat kiddies, Shaq’s lose weight “challenge”. He met some kid who lost 97lbs on it!
The F-Word also has a thread about the debate. I’m going to be a lazy fattie tonight and post my response from that thread here:
I did not watch, but this morning as I was getting ready to go to a seminar for my job, Good Morning America had analysts on talking about the debate and one comment by one of the men really hit home for me. He said that Palin comes off as the character Marge from “Fargo.” If you’ve ever seen that movie, you’ll understand why: the voice, mannerisms, the “golly, you betcha!” attitude that while can’t be helped, is extremely grating and comes off as very unprofessional.
Joe Biden is not the most charismatic man, and he has made some questionable decisons and sayings (Obama a well-dressed, articulate black man anyone)? but I do see why Obama picked him. Just like McCain choosing Palin to pander to female Hilary supporters and extreme conservatives who share Palin’s point of view, Obama had to pick someone with long-term political experience and someone who, while Democratic, is a bit more conservative when it comes to abortion and out-and-out gay marriage, and could influence, or actually pander to Democrats who aren’t as liberal about women’s and gay issues. To sum it up, both VP picks were deliberate.
But despite my reservations about Biden and Obama, their take on some of the key issues that will affect me as a woman are more in league with what I believe, instead of Sarah Palin “abstinence only/schools should teach Creationism/no marriage rights for gays/make rape victims pay for their rape kits” Palin. A vote for Palin and McCain IMO, is a vote for 50’s mentality and oppressive politics, and we don’t need that in 2008.
“You may not believe that Ifill’s book is evidence of lack of objectivity - but I think that it is not unreasonable to question Ifills’ selection to be a moderator”
It wasn’t like Ifill’s book was a well kept secret - or a secret at that - it was listed with the publisher in their catalog that has been out for WEEKS. Both campaigns agreed with Ifill as a moderator, so to come up the day before and declare that she’s obviously biased is, frankly, bullcrap.
http://www.earlyword.com/2008/10/02/why-you-need-to-read-publishers-catalogs/
This question is for everybody: does “Joe Sixpack” seem classist to you?
Whether the actual term is used or not, yeah, it’s a stereotype, and a pretty unfelicitous and annoying one. You can’t tell squat about what kind of person someone is just from their job or income or educational level, or even all three.
But the belief that you can is nothing new. Nathaneal West was using the “lower middle classes” as his scapegoat as far back as The Day of the Locust (1939). Probably some examples even exist earlier than that. Certainly I remember the term being bandied about a lot in the 1970s, only then it was “Billy and Mary Six-Pack,” a term I seem to recall was coined by an unnamed TV executive to describe their target audience: “Nice people [who] have good jobs [but] don’t want to think. Dummies, I call them.” (I remember the quote from some 1980s book about sitcoms, it might have been Rick Mitz’s.) Yeah, like “not thinking” isn’t an affliction you’ll ever find among TV executives or people of their SES, no sirree. Bah.
I’m thinking, though, that Palin’s use of the term really just means “a random anybody.”
You know you think about weight a lot when instead of thinking 6-pack of beer, I thought of a 6-pack of abs. HA!
I don’t know about classist, but I did think it sounded ridiculous and out of place in a national debate.
omg deb, until I read your comment I totally had no idea joe six-pack referred to beer - i’ve been thinking that it was abs since I heard it last night.
wow, that suddenly makes a lot more sense. I still don’t LIKE it, but it’s not quite as bizarre now.
well…I guess I’m assuming it refers to a 6-pack of beer. I’m pretty sure the average american (male) would be more likely to have one of those than a six-pack abs.
I’ve been known to be wrong….rarely. But it does happen.
The winking and cutey-cute use of words makes me think of Palin as the pretty girl who’s always gotten social approval for being pretty, so she’s playing up her visual appeal at the expense of substance.
“Whether we like it or not, we are judged on how we speak.”
Kristin, that’s true, but isn’t that part of what we should be aware of and working against?
I mean, whether I like it or not, people are going to judge me because…
1) I have a vagina
2) I grew up in a trailer
3) I’m a fatty
The way I speak is part of my cultural heritage. I often monopthongize my dipthongs on purpose, and would indeed bristle if some one chose to correct me.
yellowhammer, I really do see your point. I was making a similar one with some stuffy people at a faculty development workshop a couple of weeks ago. I was trying to make the point that we, as faculty members, should be aware of AAVE and not so quick to be frustrated with students who have trouble conjugating “be” verbs. (this was in response to an old white male professor basically saying that students who are at the college level and still can’t properly conjugate verbs had something seriously wrong with them).
And, probably, if I met someone on the street who was saying “noocyouler”, I wouldn’t be so pissed off by it. I think my serious hatred of GWB clouds my ability to logic good :)
:-)
I must admitt, I did laugh at the part of the JibJab video where Kerry sings, “You can’t say nuclear, that really scares me, sometimes a brain can come in quite handy!”
LilahMorgan, I’ll take a stab at your question:
I have a question for the knowledgable about the two-state solution and Jerusalem as a capital. Why is this contradictory?
Disclosure: I am someone who has visited Jerusalem, and lived in Israel, and has some pretty strong connections to Israel. I grew up in the American Reform Jewish movement and these days identify as a Reconstructionist Jew (Judaism = Civilization).
My answer:
Jerusalem is the most prime real estate in the world, religiously speaking. While the State of Israel identifies Jerusalem as it’s capital, the city is “owned” by four religions and many, many of the most devout sects of those religions. It is an amazing place. I don’t think having a U.S. embassy in Jerusalem is a giant priority for most American Jews or most Israelis, and would have pretty serious political/religious fallout.
The two state solution is also problematic from the more radical left perspective. One unified, secular, multi-cultural democracy is preferred by most Palestinians. How practical or likely to happen is a one-state solution? Not very, but from a purely rational perspective, one unified “Israel/Palestine/Ca’anan” would make sense. Politically, it’s almost completely unlikely to happen. What is hard to grasp unless you have been to Israel is how untenable a two state Gaza+West Bank Palestine with Israel squeezed in the middle is likely to be.
In my experience (lived there for about 1.5 years and have had about 4 subsequent visits) Israel is a beautiful, infuriating, cruel, overpopulated, exciting, awesome place. I really encourage anyone who has an interest to visit.
I thought I was going to lose my fucking mind every time she used the word “attributed” backwards. What was it, “my executive experience can be attributed to my appointment as VP candidate”? Gah.
emi - Thanks for the link, that was a great essay.
However, even after reading that I am still not a feminist. The reasons are many and I would be happy to discuss them, but I don’t think this is the forum. I wouldn’t want to derail this comment box.
It’s pretty loose around these parts, actually, and I for one am really interested. Honestly, the only reasons I’ve ever heard for not being a feminist have to do with complete strawman arguments and a real unwillingness to pat attention to reality. So anything that isn’t of that realm would be new and fascinating.
Hey, I’m just going to step in here and say that this is not a good place to have a “why is mary martha not identifying as a feminist” discussion. This is a feminist blog; we welcome respectful commenters who don’t identify as feminist, but we’re not interested in hosting discussions on the merits of feminism. On Shapely Prose, feminism is part of our basic fabric. Feel free to pick up discussion elsewhere (and we’re working on community features for the future, I swear!), but let’s please keep this thread at least somewhat about the debate.
I agree with Sweet Machine, but I’d also like to point out that there are a lot of women, particularly women of color, who subscribe to what I would consider basic feminist principles, yet don’t identify as feminists because they feel the feminist movement doesn’t speak for them. There are lots of reasons why someone might not call herself a feminist, and as SM said, that’s beyond the scope of this thread, if not this site.
I was skimming just now and read something about how Sarah Palin pronounces nuclear like many people who don’t speak the language of the wider communication? Look, if this woman’s going to have a hand in running the country if not BOTH (in the case of McCain keeling over), I’m going to need her to speak properly, and that’s all there is to it. I want people representing America who don’t make me want to barf all over my shoes. I mean, what if I could potentially conduct myself more appropriately in a room with foreign world leaders and speak to be understood? I don’t want that to be so. Both the president and the VP should be smarter, more competent, and more eloquent under stress than I could ever be. It’s their job. It’s why they have the “nucular” launch codes.
Furthermore!
VPs should not give shoutouts in a debate forum. This isn’t the acceptance speech at your awards show of choice. Are you going to thank God and your mom and that old guy who promised you a whole lot of power, too? Possibly pair it off with a wink that you did not less than SIX god. damn. times like you’re picking up some biker in a sleaze bar? Personally, I lost it when I found out that she couldn’t name a single Supreme Court judgment other than Roe v Wade. Not only does it show she’s ignorant, but it shows she doesn’t watch Law & Order — at least five times per episode, one of the lawyers slings around an SC decision to make or break the office’s decision to go or go ahead. And I can’t handle electing someone who doesn’t watch Law & Order.
Not to mention that anyone who would stand by while rape victims are charged for the cost of their kits earns nothing from me, neither points nor respect. She might not have personally busted down any doors demanding the money from those women, but by signing off on whatever bullshit rule required a fee before investigation could proceed? Fuck you. The victim blaming, men can do no wrong, we’ll charge you for the rape kit whereas nobody would bat an eye investigating your home invasion without cost, mentality makes me want to smack somebody’s face.
Late to the thread but… Palin’s performance made me sick. Her fauxksiness was an insult to every northerner, to every person who comes from a small town, and when she actually winked at the camera I was shocked by her lack of professionalism.
So there.
I think it’s not so much about Palin’s accent as it is about her word choices. The ‘cutesy’ speech. While I completely understand having a Midwestern accent (not Alaska, but, whatever…), saying things like “Joe Six-Pack,” “Doggone it,” and “Say it ain’t so, Joe”–those are just ridiculous things to say in one of the most important facets of this election.
Mary Martha - Thanks for responding, and I see that SM & Kate agree with you that this is not the place (sorry for the derailment!).
“I think that the debate in many ways was a tie - Biden did well, but considering the extremely low expectations for Palin I think that she ‘won’ because she exceeded those expectations. It’s the fault of all those who said she was ‘just a caribou barbie’ that when she wasn’t it was a huge positive.”
I had to respond to this. I don’t want to vote for the person who exceeded expectations more, I want to vote for the person who is better. The Olympic medals don’t go to the people who exceed their personal bests the most, but to the person who does best objectively, and by any objective standard Biden won the debate. Only when you bring subjective expectations in can you say that Palin was better, and that’s just because she has shown herself to be so very very terrible in interviews… not a good thing in a world leader.
Personally, as a Canadian, I fear for the future of the world if McCain/Palin are elected. Global civilization may not survive 4 years of an impulsive short-sighted violent man with the ability to launch nukes. Global markets probably won’t survive 4 more years of Conservative rule. The stock market regularly goes down with conservatives in power and up with liberals, but the people in charge don’t want to talk about this because they make more money themselves with the conservatives.
Conservative ideology is a bad thing, looked at objectively, on almost every count. Markets, freedom, deficit, just the ability to support a middle class….
Sorry for ranting.
Gov Palin’s accent is not exactly pleasing to my ears, but I’m used to such a wide range of ways people speak that nothing really bothers me so long as I can understand what they’re saying. Oddly enough, the only thing she says that DOES get on my nerves is - “John McCain”. For some reason, the way she pronounces it, or the emphasis she places on it, or something like that, makes me flinch.
I don’t mind folksiness. I don’t mind winking. (Of course, I’ve always given Bush a pass for his lead tongue as well. Tripping over your tongue doesn’t make you stupid, it makes you a bad public speaker. I am also a bad public speaker.) I don’t think we’ve seen enough of her on the national scene to really get a feel for her actual intelligence.
What I see in her is someone who feels charging stubbornly ahead, ignoring all obstacles, is a virtue. And perhaps I would feel that it was, if the direction she was charging was anywhere near where I wanted to go.
I feel very excluded by her. Her talk about hockey moms and sixpacks makes me feel like she has a very specific image of what it means to be a “Real American”, and that those are the only people that matter. And I’m definitely not one of them. When she says “tolerant” and “diverse”, I hear her gritting her teeth.
I don’t like the way she completely dodges questions and fails to answer them, then blames the ‘elite’ for filtering her. You’re right there, ma’am! You have a mic in front of you! Talk!
Her talk about hockey moms and sixpacks makes me feel like she has a very specific image of what it means to be a “Real American”, and that those are the only people that matter. And I’m definitely not one of them.
Oh, no! She’s very tolerant. I know because she said so herself many times.
Rolls eyes to the point of pain.
I just want to point something out… when I say that I am not a feminist that is what I mean. Not that I don’t “identify as a feminist ” but rather that I am not a feminist.
I am a single professional woman with two graduate degrees. I know who I am and what I believe in and stand for - feminism is not it. I respect many who are feminists (one of the reasons I read this blog) and I would hope that they would respect my decision to not be counted among their ranks.
I think that Sarah Palin is also a successful and professiona