Good, Bad, Straw
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Did I miss something? ‘Cause there’s all this “good fatties/bad fatties” talk going on in the old ‘osphere right now, and I do think these conversations can be useful and important… but I’m just not sure where they came from. I don’t know of any fat blogger or fat acceptance activist who believes that only those who practice HAES deserve dignity, respect, and rights, or that deliberately focusing on your health (as a fat or thin person) makes you better than someone who doesn’t. I know of one person who advocated treating people with eating disorders differently from “normal fatties,” and she was shouted down and then flounced away pretty damn quick; other than that, at least among the fat blogs, I’ve seen nothing of the sort.
Fat people with eating disorders have different issues than those of us without — to wit, eating disorders. But we are all bloody well fat, all human, and all deserving of respect. During my time in the movement, I’ve never heard anyone say otherwise, which is why I find the current rash of good fatty/bad fatty talk — like the “lavender menace” article in Bitch before it — pretty baffling. It seems to me this notion of the “good” fatty who practices HAES impeccably (as if there is such a thing, given that HAES is not about following any set of rules) and then smugly demands respect for being morally superior to a “bad” fatty… well, that’s nothing but a straw fatty.
It’s important to be mindful of not letting that straw fatty become a real one, when the reality is that society is much more willing to accept a fat person who exercises than one who doesn’t — and more willing still to accept a person who’s trying to lose weight. In our efforts to find wider acceptance for fat people, it could be tempting to say, “Okay, well, they’re ready to accept the ‘good’ fatties a little now, so the rest of you wait over there, and those of us with normal blood pressure and no eating disorders will come back for you later.” Anyone who’s worked in any social justice movement is familiar with that pitfall and why it must be avoided. Those who hew most closely to the dominant group’s values (and/or appearance) are always the first candidates for “acceptability” — but taking that offer of acceptance while selling out those who are further away from the dominant group only reinforces the very values you’re trying to dismantle. That’s social justice 101.
But somehow, the many, many conversations about avoiding that around here seem to have bodied forth the Straw Good Fatty, and now we’re acting as if she’s a real enemy. She’s not. Not yet, at least — and hopefully, she never will be. The enemy is and always will be a culture that hates fat people — no matter what we eat, how often we exercise, or what sizes we wear.
Filed under: Fat, Health at Every Size
Kate, have you actually seen the genesis of this round of Good Fat v. Bad Fat? I haven’t.
Paul, I think that’s where the “did I miss something” comes in.
I missed two things, apparently. Opps!
If you do find Post Zero, please let us know, because I’m just as confused as Kate about where this latest round has come from.
Ok, this isn’t actually in response to this post, but wondering if anyone else had seen this:
http://www.stylelist.com/blog/2008/03/14/fashion-can-kill/
Written by a fashion designer, referring to his own daughter’s bulimia and his opinions on why models keep getting thinner, and so forth.
It’s not very in-depth, but I found it interesting, in any case.
Yeah, Paul, an earlier draft asked that more explicitly, but then I got carried away.
Also, before anybody says it, my decision to work with a mainstream magazine on an article about healthy fat people does not mean that I’m selling out non-healthy fat people. It means I’d rather have a positive article about some fat people than no positive articles at all. I would also like to see a whole lot more positive articles about all fat people, as we’ve seen a few of recently, and I do my best in every interview to reinforce that I’m talking about human rights, period. But sometimes, it’s appropriate to take a baby step instead of a leap; you just have to make sure you don’t confuse the two.
Not sure, but maybe it had something to do with the worm planted by your call-out for pictures of “healthy” fatties for that magazine pictorial? Not that I personally have a problem with your having done that, or think anyone else should have — I think you contextualized it well. But I could see how fat people who have “health problems” (gah, who doesn’t?) or who do live the stereotypical fatass drive-everywhere-eat-convenience-food-no-exercise lifestyle could feel like they’re being shut out.
(I await the arrival of the flying bananas.)
Kate’s post came in a split second before mine, sorry, I typed the above before reading what you said. Again, what I said was not meant to be criticism, though, just tossing that out as a possibility for where the thought might have come from.
Meowser, I’d hope that isn’t where it came from. I’d be pretty disappointed if it turned out that people were blaming the fatosphere for the failures of the mainstream media.
Kate, I know you already have a book deal, but how about that “Social Justice 101″? I’ll help. We can find one member of each persecuted group to write a chapter, and then at the end say “See how they all kinda say the same thing?”
Because, y’know, oppressions are related and intersecting, so it should come as no surprise that the same weapons are used against us all.
(great post, of course)
What about middlin’ fatties who don’t eat particularly unhealthily but do sometimes eat a bit too much, exercise when they remember to but hate every minute of it, occasionally publically lament their waist-to-hip ratio, occasionally publically lather up in self-love, and overall don’t give much of a thought to how they look?
Because I think we need a few more articles about me, is what I’m saying. “Good” fatty, “bad” fatty, pah: Let’s hear it for the mediocre fatties!
(I kid. Mostly, anyway.)
What about middlin’ fatties who don’t eat particularly unhealthily but do sometimes eat a bit too much, exercise when they remember to but hate every minute of it, occasionally publically lament their waist-to-hip ratio, occasionally publically lather up in self-love, and overall don’t give much of a thought to how they look?
Oh, we TOTALLY reject those guys.
Meowser, I’d hope that isn’t where it came from. I’d be pretty disappointed if it turned out that people were blaming the fatosphere for the failures of the mainstream media.
That makes two of us, FJ.
And actually, I don’t think the pictorial is a bad thing. I think stereotype-busting IS important. I, actually, intend to submit a picture to it.
But unfortunately, at this point in time, “But I DON’T stuff my face with donuts and I’m still fat” is a better opening shiv in the war against the haters than, “So WHAT if I stuff my face with donuts, is it any of your business?” Because people DO think it’s their business. And I think that sucks. And I don’t blame anyone for feeling left out, for thinking, “What, I’m not good enough to get my picture in a magazine because I have Disease X or because I had a Big Mac yesterday?”
Again, though, if I made it sound like I was blaming Kate for this, I apologize. I should have said it was (possibly) because of the magazine asking for the pictures, not because of you asking for them.
Again, though, if I made it sound like I was blaming Kate for this, I apologize. I should have said it was (possibly) because of the magazine asking for the pictures, not because of you asking for them.
No worries, Meowser — obviously, I thought of that myself, which is perhaps why I’m a little oversensitive about this.
But unfortunately, at this point in time, “But I DON’T stuff my face with donuts and I’m still fat” is a better opening shiv in the war against the haters than, “So WHAT if I stuff my face with donuts, is it any of your business?”
Totally agreed, when you’re talking to the media. To get the word out, you have to step outside your front door — and often into an environment where you don’t make the rules anymore, and simply try to do your best to operate within the context that’s available.
But confusing that with a fatosphere-wide judgment of “bad fatties” — which I’ve never even seen anyone SAY except to reject the idea — is just an error.
And no, I don’t think it sounded like you were blaming Kate; it sounded like you were suggesting an answer to her question.
To get the word out, you have to step outside your front door — and often into an environment where you don’t make the rules anymore, and simply try to do your best to operate within the context that’s available.
But confusing that with a fatosphere-wide judgment of “bad fatties” — which I’ve never even seen anyone SAY except to reject the idea — is just an error
Thanks, FJ. That’s a much more eloquent and succinct version of what I wanted to say.
I know that this duality is probably multi-faceted (especially since “health” is such a well-defined term in our society), but a workshop this weekend had me thinking about how difficult exercise and sticking with the intuitive eating stuff can be for me. I have an internal mechanism that then says, “Oh, I’m bad.” It’s not such a far stretch for someone to read about the joys of exercise or the revolutionary idea of intuitive eating and infer that there is some judgement.
I’m not say that we should stop talking about these things, but I am saying that there is going to be (within a group of people who have been trying to live by an impossible ideal and being judged as failures in relation to that idea) some misconception even in the most well meaning of posts.
That’s a really good point, spinsterwitch.
I cannot give an answer about how this started this time, but I can tell you all that it is not new. Back in the 70’s, in the early days of fat liberation, the pioneers dealt with this division in the movement, between people who ate what they pleased & maybe didn’t exercise much & those who believed that we MUST eat ‘right”, exercise a lot, be perfectly groomed, & (from NAAFA’s male founders) that women must be tastefully dressed, circumspect in behavior, & MUST NOT GAIN MORE WEIGHT…as it made the movement ‘look bad’. In recent years, we have had people representing NAAFA saying that it is necessary to teach fat people how to eat & exercise “because most fat people don’t understand how to eat right & they eat too much & don’t move enough & make themselves fatter than they need to be” & the same source also said that NAAFA did not want to be seen as ‘condoning’ fat…no, we are supposed to be ashamed & apologetic, hide our heads, & assure the world that we know we are bad, fat is unhealthy, & we are trying everything to get thin, so PLEASE don’t hate us…or wipe us off the face of the earth.
I was a long -time poster at Marilyn Wann’s Gabcafe & some years ago I myself was one of the ‘good’ fatties…barely fat at all, not just normally active as I have always been, but exercising compulsively, counting fiber grams & vegetable servings, etc. There were more than a few of us of similar ilk posting in the Cafe…bragging about perfect BP, blood sugar, cholesterol, exercise habits, eating ‘organic’ foods, & who knows what else? I can tell you that this behavior, of which I myself was guilty to some extent before I got hit well upside the head with a clue by four & learned the error of my ways, caused more than a little division in the Cafe. To my eternal sorrow, it also caused the permanent exodus of the some of the best people we ever had posting there because they felt left out, as if they were not ‘good enough’ to be part of fat acceptance.
And I have to tell you that, these days, given some of what I have read & heard about much of what the so-called “HAES” people advise as ‘healthy living’, the term HAES is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. My views have done a 180-degree turn, & I am about fat rights as a civil rights movement, about human rights, for ALL of us, about body autonomy, about our right to own our own bodies, live in them as we damn well please, & have full legal protection, dignity, & full access in this culture, regardless of size, shape, age, gender, race, physical abilities, eating or exercise habits. And I have come to firmly believe that we have little control, beyond maybe not smoking or abusing alcohol or drugs & looking before we cross the street & possibly using seatbelts, over what illnesses we have or when we die, & ‘healthy living’ is all about marketing, all about having a club to beat us over the head with so ‘they’ can blame us for any thing which ever goes wrong. I have said for years that if I get hit by a truck while I am out walking when I am 110, someone somewhere will list my death as having been caused by ‘fat’.
And the very fact that a poster above would post that sometimes she eats ‘too much’ is a strong indication of how deeply inculcated the beliefs & guilt are. I have personally known more than a few fat people who do feel, correctly or not, left out because they are ‘too fat’ or they do not live ‘right’.
I don’t know if this helps, but I did want to provide some background & explanation & let you know that the ‘good fattie/bad fattie’ dichotomy has been around for at least 35-40 years.
And I have to say that in all honesty I am not too happy with ‘baby steps’ & the term gets under my skin somewhat. After 40 years, we should be taking a hell of a lot more than ‘baby steps’, which is all NAAFA has ever done…when they have done anything at all.
I think you’re onto something, spinsterwitch… Possibly a variation on the it’s not about you reaction?
But unfortunately, at this point in time, “But I DON’T stuff my face with donuts and I’m still fat” is a better opening shiv in the war against the haters than, “So WHAT if I stuff my face with donuts, is it any of your business?”
I dunno. In the end I have to nix both, because from what I’ve seen, both answers get ugly as hell. Basically either way you’re playing defense.
I think the best (or least bad) approach is to go offense. Turn it around and interrogate the questioner why they think that kind of invasive, intrusive questioning is acceptable, and why only fat people are expected to go through this humiliation, accounting for every morsel of food we put in our mouths and whether we ever watch television, etc. Maybe question the questioner on their habits.
If pressed on what you or what ‘fat people’ do maybe “some do some don’t, just like thin people.” You can talk about HAES. But if you start answering that question without calling the questioner on it, you’ve already conceded that it’s OK to publicly interrogate and humiliate fat people.
You can do all of it in a nice, pleasant way. But you have to challenge the question. It’s basically as invasive as asking someone who’s gay to account for and justify their sexual behavior or their sexual history.
And I think that was something of the point of Lindsay. The way the very frame, the opening question about “healthy habits” is both a put-down and a set-up you accept at your peril.
I think part of this comes from a message board thread that involves bloggers only. I’ll admit, I was one of the first to post on this concept, because I feel very strongly on it. I don’t follow HAES, I don’t exercise regularly. I read a really sad post from an FA blogger on the feed last week where she really went into this: I am letting the WHOLE MOVEMENT down because I totally fucked up my eating this week and I am a Bad Fat Person, and I am ruining it for everyone, even the Good Fat People.
I reacted strongly to that. She has an ED, too.
And my thought is this: she may have that internal message, but where did that internal message come from? Do those messages just exist naturally, or did they come from somewhere? I don’t know where they came from. But I think they must come from somewhere external. I have no idea where. I am not pointing out any singular blog or person, because clearly I can’t pinpoint it or I would have linked to it. It seems like this mass collective unconscious Jungian movement because everyone’s talking about it — first that blog, and then the message board, and then I wrote a post, and of course, that exploded into a few more posts. (Lindsay’s over at Babble may have appeared before mine).
I know that if you have an ED mindset, there’ s some OCD thinking in there that can take that GOOD/BAD dichotomy to the extreme, but it still must be out there somewhere. I don’t know from what or where. My point is, occasionally, I want to point out that yep, there are the fat people out there who don’t exercise or exercise sometimes (like me), who try to eat as best they can but still mess it up (like me), who have decent numbers (BP/cholesterol, etc) but have messed up their health from repeated dieting, and we respect the work of people who are doing HAES, but it’s not for us. And also, yep, all fatties deserve equal rights, no matter how fat or fit.
I’ve read the posts about HAES and exercise and didn’t even stop to think that they could create a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ fattie paradigm. I saw them as this is what you can do to improve your health if you are so inclined, not that they are hard and fast rules that have to be followed in order to be accepted by the FAM. I don’t know where I would fit on that scale, and I don’t really care. We all have a voice in this thing of ours (shades of The Godfather….lol) and it doesn’t matter if we follow HAES, doesn’t matter if we exercise, we all have a perspective to offer on being fat and how it affects us. We deserve the same rights and civility that anyone who is not fat are entitled to, no matter how we live our fat lives.
There have been a few posts on the blogosphere within the past couple weeks addressing the schism between the good fattie and bad fattie. It’s understandable that this topic comes up from time to time, as new members are continually welcomed into the fold and existing members advance further in their journey to fat acceptance.
As for where it comes from, there’s no direct source at which you can point a finger at, but it’s not difficult to discern. Many fat acceptance activists actively work to dispel the stereotypes of fatness, which includes emphasis on how fat people eat no differently and exercise no less than their thin counterparts, as well as presenting a vision of themselves as one who enjoys a non-disordered and healthy relationship with food.
I can see how those people, who admittedly do not follow a healthy diet or exercise regularly, might be put off on seeing other fat people promote this concept on a day-to-day basis. I’m not faulting anyone for working to smash the stereotypes - it’s a very much-needed component of the movement. But in doing so, we may also unconsciously distance ourselves from those people who are fat and do not feel they fit the mold of a “good” and “healthy” fattie. I know people who feel like those (myself included) who promote this concept are trying to distance themselves from those other fatties and the stigma of gluttony itself.
For me, the crux of fat acceptance is in equal rights for fat people regardless of what they weigh or why they weigh what they do. Most fat acceptance bloggers I know of also believe in this and promote it. Countering the stereotypes certainly has its place in the movement and goes hand-in-hand with achieving the foundational goal of civil rights. But, I also think that at times, we mire ourselves so much in breaking the stereotypes that we lose sight on what our primary goal is. (And I saw “we” as in collectively, with no one person or organization singled out).
Thank you, fat fu. I shouldn’t have to answer any questions about my eating or health habits from the public at large. Just like trans people shouldn’t have to answer questions like: “what are you?” Or queers shouldn’t have to answer questions like: “How do you ‘do’ it?” Because it’s nobody’s business, number 1, and number 2, you’ve just involved yourself in your own dehumanization by participating in the idiotic dialogue.
An excellent blog post about being plus size and pregnant
http://www.pamamidwife.com/2008/03/15/what-does-size-have-to-do-with-it/
You know that ginormous list of FA blogs on my site? I’m literally subscribed to all of them and then some. So i’ve been seeing this “conversation” going on for quite some time now… and i can’t personally pinpoint an origin. I think it’s partly seasonal. As stores start stocking up on spring and summer clothing, people are seeing the bathing suits and looking more closely at their own bodies. When this happens, everything starts to get scrutinized, and we are so harsh on judging ourselves… far worse than we do with other people.
So the good/bad thing has been coming up in bits and pieces here and there. There was some talk about it on a blogger-only board, and last night i posted some pictures with a series of questions regarding the issue. That post seemed to spark a fair bit of blogged reactions, but my own post was a reaction to things i’ve seen going on in the fatosphere.
The answers people had to those questions proved to be… interesting. I plan on doing a follow-up to that post either tonight or tomorrow, with more information on the answers to those questions, why i posted what i did, and some further thoughts on the matter.
I haven’t been participating, that I’m aware of, in these good fatty/bad fatty conversations, but I can say that as a noob it actually is kind of daunting, if you know you can’t say “Well I eat *really* healthy and I exercise regularly.” At least, it was daunting coming in when I did because all of a sudden there were fat activists going on TV (and watching the old footage of Kelly Bliss and Joy Nash on tv with Mememememe) and they were all…pretty, not what I think of as really fat (fat, yes, but within a certain range, I think) and you start reading all these blogs where so many people really are practicing HAES to the best of their ability. I’ve…well I’ve always preferred quiet activities to strenuous ones. Sure, I climbed trees, but once I got up there I’d sit and imagine things for a long time, quietly. I want to take up some beginners’ yoga but when I started I noticed that I have this thing that pops out in my abdomen and I think it might be a hernia so I have to have it checked out before I feel comfortable going ahead. Walking is kind of out of the question on any level that would help, with this ankle of mine. But see I’m explaining why I’m excused from class when no one said I had to attend in the first place. If the FA movement itself ever loses sight of the fact that we’re all (”good, bad or middlin”
in this together, that would be tragic, but it’s comforting to hear prominent advocates of HAES say that they have no intention of leaving the rest of us behind anyway. We can’t all be healthy - fat, thin, man, woman, child, etc.
I think it’s partly seasonal. As stores start stocking up on spring and summer clothing, people are seeing the bathing suits and looking more closely at their own bodies. When this happens, everything starts to get scrutinized, and we are so harsh on judging ourselves… far worse than we do with other people.
This is a very interesting theory, and one that I haven’t seen proposed before. It would explain why it keeps coming up over and over until I want to stick my thumbs in my eyes.
My point is, occasionally, I want to point out that yep, there are the fat people out there who don’t exercise or exercise sometimes (like me), who try to eat as best they can but still mess it up (like me), who have decent numbers (BP/cholesterol, etc) but have messed up their health from repeated dieting, and we respect the work of people who are doing HAES, but it’s not for us. And also, yep, all fatties deserve equal rights, no matter how fat or fit.
That is exactly what I was trying to say (perhaps I should have used less levity). Brava, thoughtracer.
Also…sorry to double post, but I mean that there’s a lot of other noobs coming around since the media exposure has led them to it, and maybe a lot of them just sort of get that impression because of where the media focus is and how many prominent bloggers are such “good” fatties lol. I dunno, now the good fatty/bad fatty idea is just making me laugh. Anyway, Kate, I really don’t think you started it with the magazine thing; I think it’s something that just needs to be mentioned occasionally, that we’re all in this together.
HAES is a conversation about, well, health at every size. About how we can be healthy in our various body types. It is not a program.
Sure, people have published sets of “HAES principles,” but even on those lists, “eat right and exercise” is really not one of them. HAES is more of a set of beliefs about health and wellness, and what often gets mistranslated (even on fat blogs) as “eat right” is actually defined differently by different people exploring this idea of weight-neutral wellness. Many HAES experts say that there is no one way to “eat right” and that one cannot be “bad” in their eating or “good” in their eating. And exercise? I don’t hear a lot about exercise from professionals talking about HAES approaches. I hear about finding activities one enjoys doing. Enjoying using one’s body. But not a lot about going to the gym. And even the idea that “health” is well defined is something questioned by those participating in ongoing HAES discussions. A recent ShowMeTheData post pointed out that the absence of disease is only one way to define health, and perhaps a more useful definition for humans in this day and age relates more to living well with one’s bodies even through disease and injury and whatnot.
Anyway, I just wanted to dispell any myth that “HAES” is a program like Weight Watchers or whatever. It’s not a program, one doesn’t “go on HAES” or “fail HAES.” One can’t “be HAES” or “not be HAES.” HAES is a set of beliefs or a wellness philosophy - or as I said above, a conversation - being increasingly adopted in health promotion communities, and it goes far beyond a program one can be “doing” or “not doing.” As a philosophy, it (if there is an “it”
states that wellness approaches should not focus on weight loss, that all people deserve proper healthcare, that health is not contingent upon weight, and that health itself is an ever-shifting term. As a conversation, it is about what healthy means for us and how we can live our lives in ways that work for us. It is not a singular “program” stating that fat people SHOULD “eat right” and “exercise,” and it not (in my view) something you as an individual go on or off like a diet.
Sorry for the gratuitous use of quotation marks here.
This is driving me kee-razy. I’ll try not to rant with much bitchiness.
* With the exception of the situation Kate mentioned, I have never seen anyone in the fatosphere try to draw any kind of line between good and bad fatties. Setting aside the “health” thing entirely, it’s a freakin’ civil rights issue. Full stop.
* I am personally of the opinion that a lot of people react to HAES-based conversations with defensiveness born of insecurity tied to the ongoing process of strangling off the internalized blame with which society has trained fatties to equip themselves. I think the closer people get to silencing that interior critic, the less fear there will be that HAES is the new skinny.
* It seems to me entirely counterproductive to keep going over this retread conversation again and again, when NO ONE is trying to exclude anything but diet talk.
And my thought is this: she may have that internal message, but where did that internal message come from? Do those messages just exist naturally, or did they come from somewhere? I don’t know where they came from. But I think they must come from somewhere external. I have no idea where. I am not pointing out any singular blog or person, because clearly I can’t pinpoint it or I would have linked to it. It seems like this mass collective unconscious Jungian movement because everyone’s talking about it
Isn’t what your describing basically internalized fat-phobia? I mean, to some extent, we’ve got an entire community that’s here specifically because we are trying to let go of compulsive habits of judging ourselves, and of feeling judged by other people. The nature of all these blogs are going to specifically attract people who have strong inner critics, especially with regards to body issues, because those are the people these blogs are trying to help. So it doesn’t really seem surprising that, every now and then, the inner critics are going to grab control, froth everyone up into a “I’M BEING JUDGED FOR MY BODY!” panic, and lead the charge for a while.
That’s exactly the pattern that fat acceptance is trying to break, but it’s not like you can read a few articles online and be cured of it — it seems like it’s always going to cycle through occasionally. So the goal becomes finding ways of recognizing it, taking control back from it, and sending it to the back of the bus, without judgment.
It’s fat acceptance at a systems level, I guess.
Or, what Tari said!
I am personally of the opinion that a lot of people react to HAES-based conversations with defensiveness born of insecurity tied to the ongoing process of strangling off the internalized blame with which society has trained fatties to equip themselves.
Tari, i’ll admit that i react defensively to HAES conversations from time to time, but that’s less from insecurities, and more from envy. I can never be healthy at any size - it’s not a cop-out, it’s a fact. There is no cure for fibromyalgia.
“I can never be healthy at any size”
That’s what I was trying to address above. HAES is not some program promoting those who are without illness and injury. It isn’t saying “fat people should never have health problems.” It is a position that health concerns can be addressed in ways that don’t promote sizism.
Word. I have fibromyalgia too — along with rheumatoid arthritis and now, possibly, lupus — but that doesn’t mean I can’t be as healthy as it’s possible for me to be. (If that makes sense.) I don’t take “health at every size” to mean “perfect health,” I take it to mean “take the best care of myself that I can, at 200 pounds as well as at 130.”
Tari, i’ll admit that i react defensively to HAES conversations from time to time, but that’s less from insecurities, and more from envy. I can never be healthy at any size
I get that.
Are we talking about “health” in terms of “never has any health issues,” or are we talking about HAES as in, “feed and move your body the way your body wants to be fed and moved”? ‘Cause in my mind, it’s the latter.
* It seems to me entirely counterproductive to keep going over this retread conversation again and again, when NO ONE is trying to exclude anything but diet talk.
I know what you’re saying, Tari, but as new people come in they can get the impression, wrong as it may be. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with mentioning occasionally that FA is for all fat people, the ones that society will accept more readily (those who aren’t *that” fat, who eat well and exercise regularly, etc. - of whom many exist) and those that society isn’t going to accept so readily - those that do eat a lot, or a lot of “junk” or don’t get much exercise. Or at least have it somewhere in the FAQ so you people who’ve been in the movement a while can stop going over tired old conversations that are of some value to newbies. I know you’re all anxious to move on to the next step and I’m with ya’ but I don’t know everything yet (I’m learning as fast as I possibly can though.)
Yes, these points have been raised before - and in theory i don’t disagree. I suppose it’s that the intellectual side of me agrees, but the emotional side sulks.
And it’s not like i don’t try to maintain my symptoms to a tolerable level. But i’d be lying if i said i don’t envy the people who can be fat and fit.
And while i didn’t say anything at the time? The call for pictures of healthy fat people did sting. BUT, in all honesty, i forgot about it within a day or two. It had nothing whatsoever to do with my post last night.
I’m not sure about this latest round, but the general idea of good fattie/bad fattie has been around for quite a while. For me, the idea basically comes not from fat acceptance itself — but from the mainstream’s (ignorant) reaction to the stereotype-busting attempts of fat acceptance. Some people, when they hear that ‘hey, not all fat people meet that stereotype,’ the immediate (and admittedly simple-minded) reaction is to be like, “OOOH OKAY SO I’LL ONLY HATE THE ONES WHO DOOOO FIT THE STEREOTYPE.” And certainly some people do and will fit that stereotype (just as some thin people would, but would never be called out for it.)
Maybe I am catering too much to the ignorant in my demands, but I prefer to use stereotype-busting as more of a condiment than a full course in the discussion of fat acceptance.
It is definitely useful, it definitely has a place, but not on its own. Not without the substance, not without the whole ‘don’t hate groups of people’ thing to back it up.
(And I’m not pointing any fingers here at anyone in particular. I just occasionally get the feeling that we are collectively railroaded by the naysayers into a defensive stance, when maybe our energy would be better placed on offense. The offense being DON’T HATE PEOPLE, IT IS WRONG.)
HAES is not some program promoting those who are without illness and injury. It isn’t saying “fat people should never have health problems.” It is a position that health concerns can be addressed in ways that don’t promote sizism.
GiniLiz, thank you for saying that. It is often a delicate/difficult point to get across, and you did it so well.
Excellent points, Peggy. ITA.
I’m one of the new(ish) readers who’s following this discussion for the first time. I’m afraid I must say that Shapely Prose is the only FA blog where I sometimes get the idea that I need to engage in certain “healthy” behaviours to be a good fat activist.
I’ve read here before that all fatties are acceptable etc., and I believe that, of course, you do not mean to exclude anyone. Still, sometimes it sounds like lip service to me, because on the other hand, in the heat of the moment, I feel the line of reasoning here, more often than not, goes “…and then I ate a salad and went to yoga class! There. HA!” As if that’s the most poignant argument we fatties can come up with.
Maybe I should look through old SP posts again and find out where I’ve got this idea. Maybe it’s my own sense of guilt that makes me oversensitive, or maybe it’s just that the contributors are a bit obsessed with vegetables and exercise.
Em, I have noticed posts like that too. Not necessarily here — I don’t remember where, actually. But sometimes we catch ourselves doing something that defies a stereotype about our group, and we want to highlight it. I don’t know that this is a problem. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves that we are whole human beings and not caricatures. In my conservative Christian days, I would point out the parts of me that didn’t quite fit that mold. As a grad student, I point out the parts of me that don’t fit that mold. I think it is normal to want to be more than a stereotype, and I think it can be done without judgment of the defiant behavior. For me, it can be hard not to hear judgment in it, but I know that is my own.
Tari: You are bloody brilliant.
I think a key component of HAES that those who feel insecure if they are doing it “right” or not forgets is mental health. One’s health isn’t determined simply by our cholesterol numbers or blood pressure. It’s also determined by the ways in which we relate to our bodies, to food, and to external and internal pressures threatening to erode our own sense of empowerment. And good mental is just as important, if not more, than physical health.
Peggynature said
That comes pretty close to my own views. Oh, and what Rachel said.
The “good fatty/bad fatty” judgment does not - in my opinion - come from WITHIN the FA community. It’s clear that we are a pretty accepting group. The judgment comes from OUTSIDE the movement, generally from ignorance.
However I do feel that we, as Fat Activists, can sometimes unintentionally play into that external judgment of fat people with how we choose, individually and as a group, to respond to discussions about fat and health.
Any activism is good activism - no argument there. But, as others have said, lets also reframe the debate so its about rights, not just health.
I blogged about this in relation to the magazine article discussion, and I still maintain that the mainstream media will accept “healthy” fatties first. However, I don’t see this as a problem inside the movement. No blogger I’ve read is saying specifically, “I think less healthy-living fatties are a disgrace to the movement” or anything like that. Most of us have our personal eating issues, but it’s not directed at others in any case I’ve seen.
The polarization of good vs. bad fatties is a tricky issue, because it often seems to be done by us “bad” fatties and we often seem to be very defensive about it. I don’t think it’s so much the rhetoric inside the fatosphere as the rhetoric outside of it that gives definition to “health” and “heatlhy lifestyle”. I think the mainstream media and our culture in general just has a very polarizing view of health - either you do everything “right” or everything “wrong”; if you’re overweight, it doesn’t matter what else you do, etc. We come to the fatosphere with these preconceptions, and then there’s the HAES thinking that uses partially the same language, but means different things by it. It’s just hard to grasp at first. It took me a few months to really understand that it’s not against me somehow.
I think HAES talk has given me a way to view health issues more safely, and has helped me feel that maybe I’m not that hugely unhealthy and eating soo badly and my whole health is ruined etc. I’ve become more health-tolerant because of this talk in this safe context. Even if I still do have issues with health ideals, I think I’m doing better because of FA and HAES. I also think it can open doors for fat people to do SOMETHING, instead of doing nothing. In that sense, HAES talk is important.
But I do agree with peggynature that it shouldn’t be the main defense against fat hate.
I came to the Fatosphere through HAES since I was disgusted by so many people that talked about exercise and eating healthy in only relationship to losing weight. I’m not fat. I’ve been heavier than I am now. My honey is fat and he tries to eat healthy and he doesn’t find time to exercise. I wanted to be somewhere people would talk about living a healthy life without the need to lose weight.
I stay here and read the blogs because I agree with a lot that is being said. I think discrimination is wrong and fat is neither good or bad. Fat just is.
What Rachel wrote earlier fits pretty much with my observations. I never have seen anybody in the movement say that they think only “good fatties” deserve acceptance. But I have seen plenty of comments that said things along the lines of how the respective person eats far less than 2000 kcal per day or how he or she cannot possibly finish I whole whatever. Same goes for exercise.
I know that saying you eat “healthy” and exercise is not the same as judging people who don’t eat/ exercise like you do or thinking they don’t deserve to be treated well. But it does seem a bit like dissociating yourself from those people or at least like justifying your fatness (i.e., making sure everyone knows it is not your fault). Every time that happens it does make me feel uncomfortable - mainly because on the days when I have come closest to eating intuitvely I did eat more than 2000 kcal (not a multiple of it, but more) - and I do usually feel like a “bad fatty” in those moments. I have understood over time that those comments are not comments on how I should behave, but honestly, it is hard to not apply them to what I do. It is a bit like looking at a very beautiful and thin woman make disparaging remarks about her body and then wonder what she thinks about me who is not particularly beautiful and most certainly not thin.
On the other hand, I myself have at times underlined that I am a vegetarian and that I walk and bike plenty (due to not owning a car) - usually conveniently forgetting to mention that I am also a binge eater who eats more than the average person even when she doesn’t binge. I did it mostly to provide a counter-example to the stereotype of a fat person, or at least I hope so. But I think there was also always a motive of self-justification. The funny thing is that after all I know about stereotypes it doesn’t seem a good strategy to provide an extreme example that does not fit the stereotype - people tend to remember those extreme examples as exceptions.
that do not really represent the group. Going with a
What if someone feels that poor health is a moral failing, but does so without any regard to weight whatsoever? Is that consistent with “fat acceptance”, even if it’s not what the majority of fat acceptance activists personally believe?
I have heard troll comments about bad/good fatties not relating to food and exercise stereotypes, but clothing sizes.
I’m a size 26/28. Many fatphobes have this impression those size 22 and up are REALLY bad fat people because we have to wear some of the biggest clothing sizes. We are labeled “morbidly obese” by the medical community and we are walking masses of diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and bad cholesterol. News reports say WLS is our only option to look acceptable and get rid of health conditions they assume we have.
They can keep on spouting those tiresome stereotypes. I move and do what I need to do to keep myself healthy as best I can—both physically and mentally.
And honestly, you know what? When Kate posted the magazine BMI Project call for submissions, I was tempted to fill out the question that said “Tell us why you’re healthy!” with, “Because I said so.”
Alice — I’m curious how poor health could be a moral failing? I tend to disagree, but I’d be interested to hear what you’re driving at.
At school, I’ve done a lot of talking about definitions of health, and it is not as black or white an issue as it might seem. I tend to believe people can be considered ‘healthy’ if they can cope with whatever life throws their way and still enjoy a meaningful existence (’meaningful’ as defined by the individual, of course.) But that’s just me.
Alice, personally I don’t think it’s consistent with fat acceptance, because it’s not accepting and assigns a moral value to your health. Both of these things are, to me, at the heart of fat acceptance. But others might disagree.
peggynature: Alice — I’m curious how poor health could be a moral failing? I tend to disagree, but I’d be interested to hear what you’re driving at.
The position is one I’m iffy on myself, but I have heard it expressed before, mainly in regards to health care. It requires a somewhat collectivist mindset, as it uses such arguments as that avoidable consumption of health care harms other users of the health care system since the personnel required, particularly nurses at present, are a scare resource: in a socialist system, the victims are those at low triage who will have their treatment delayed by the bureaucracy, and in a capitalist system the victims are the lower class, since increased demand raises the price of health care.
There is also the Homo Universalis philosophy which declares that people should try to embrace all knowledge and develop their own capacities as fully as possible in all fields, which includes physical fitness, but that ideal hasn’t really been popular since the Renaissance.
Me:But unfortunately, at this point in time, “But I DON’T stuff my face with donuts and I’m still fat” is a better opening shiv in the war against the haters than, “So WHAT if I stuff my face with donuts, is it any of your business?”
Fu:I dunno. In the end I have to nix both, because from what I’ve seen, both answers get ugly as hell. Basically either way you’re playing defense.
Yes, if we stop there. I’m certainly not about to hold MY “lifestyle” up as perfect and vice-free (I ate plenty of fried Chinese food for lunch today with WHITE RICE and liked it, thank you), and nobody should have to in order to be treated like a decent human being. (I’ve seen plenty of thin people eating the exact same lunch I had, and I bet most of them didn’t spend all afternoon in the gym, either.)
But you know, it’s bloody hilarious that we’re even having this discussion, in a way, because it’s absolutely beyond the pale to most people. “Healthy fat people? There’s no such thing! That’s like being a healthy crackhead!” People’s perceptions desperately need fucking with, every chance we get. I want to fuck with ALL of them eventually, including the very notion of “healthy lifestyle,” because frankly, I doubt there’s really any such thing that’s true across the board for everyone (other than maybe being a crackhead or tweaker being pretty universally bad for you and everyone who has to deal with you), and there is layer upon layer upon layer of hypocrisy out there about it (e.g. we’re supposed to look down on smokers yet our economy is umbilically dependent upon people all over the world smoking lots of cigarettes, or at least buying them).
But you gotta start somewhere. Not responding to the donut-stuffing accusation is a little like John Kerry not responding to being Swiftboated — you can’t blame him for not wanting to stoop to that level, but look what it cost him.
Patsy, just wanted to thank you for that long-term/historical perspective. It really helps. (Me at least).
Alice: Define “poor health,” please. And when you attempt to do so, bear in mind that the longer you live, the greater your chances of getting Really Fucking Sick (TM). And also bear in mind that there is no “magic lifestyle” that will prevent or reverse getting RFS. I have at least one friend who did everything “right” and got RFS way before her time. Total control over “health” is as illusory as total control over weight.
You know, I had a health scare recently (I’m fine) and I was really beating my self up for what I’d done wrong. It got me thinking - there so much moralizing of health out there, that people interepret even a self-esteem message like HAES as if “I do this right, everything will be ok.” But, of course, you can love your body, and treat it right, by whatever definition, and sometimes it repays you by getting sick. And, it’s totally understandable why we don’t like to think about this, ’cause it just sucks.
Alice: Define “poor health,” please. And when you attempt to do so, bear in mind that the longer you live, the greater your chances of getting Really Fucking Sick (TM).
When I spoke to the producer of The Morning Show, she told me that one of M*M* Wrath’s talking points is that it is socially irresponsible to lead a healthy lifestyle (a.k.a. get fat) and then expect others to pick up your health care tab. I explained to the producer how the use of tanning beds has been linked to skin cancer, how eating red meat has been linked to stomach cancers, and how the simple fact of driving a car increases our risk of being in an auto accident and yet we don’t deny any of these people health care.
The producer mulled this over and then said, “Yeah, and what if M*M* blows out her knee while exercising?”
There are things we can do to improve our health, but they are precautions, not guarantees.
That is… It is t is socially irresponsible to lead an unhealthy lifestyle (a.k.a. get fat)…
I suppose the best, ends-based definition for the aforementioned health-care use reduction goal would be, “not pursuing behaviors known beyond reasonable doubt to cause reduced risk of serious illness, within reason.” What those behaviors are is a matter of continued scientific debate, and what is within reason is a matter of personal judgment, but eh, that’s life.
It’s interesting that you should mention this. I’m more familiar with disability rights and social perceptions of the disabled than I am about fat issues. I’ve found that the public face of any disability is almost invariably not representative–aside from fitting the social beauty norm better than your average person, they’re usually also among the highest-functioning people with that specific disability. It frustrates me at times, because the public may get one idea of what, say, a person with fibro looks like/can do which may not match up with the reality most patients face. Of course, representations can vary. The recent commercial for Lyrica (first drug ever approved for fibro) shows an extremly lucky, healthy fibro pateint, who is played by an actress. The National Fibromyalgia Assocaition’s PSA is a bit more real, the patients are more diverse, more normal looking and are more candid about their limitations.
Pardon me if this isn’t terribly coherent; I’m in the midst of midterms and rather brainfried.
This discussion seems ironic to me because it was through Shapely Prose that I first realized I could remove the moral judgment from food.
I had a mousse cake today. It was delicious. It wasn’t a “treat” or a “I shouldn’t but I’ve been so good lately” or a “I’ll just work out harder later” or “I’ll eat a salad tomorrow”. It was a mousse cake.
I’m an adult. I wanted mousse cake after lunch. I ordered it. I ate it. I enjoyed it. I have no reason to feel guilty. There is no moral dimension to my food.
I now eat what my body tells me I want to eat. Sometimes that is salad. Sometimes it is a quiche and soup followed by mousse cake. Sometimes it is lasagna and garlic bread. No thought of “empty calories”, no thoughts off “bad fatty”.
I have permission to eat what I want. I have permission to move and exercise as much or as little as I want. I have permission to go out and get a coat that fits (rather than hold out hope that I can lose enough weight to fit into my old one). Who gave me permission? Myself. I’m finally learning to listen to myself and like myself enough to treat myself well.
A long road helped by Shapely Prose and a few other FA blogs.
I’ve never seen “good fatty” or “bad fatty”–in the Fatosphere it is “good people” who deserve to be treated as such–all of us, regardless of any behaviors or any health issues. We’re people, We’re fat, and We deserve to be treated like anyone else! We deserve to love ourselves! We deserve to eat and exercise as much or as little as we want without being judged by others.
Well, anyway, I’m not here to argue the point that poor health is a mental failing. It was an idle thought on the fact that someone with no concern whatsoever for social justice or people’s self-esteem and body image could still come to this sight, see the research on how fat is not, in itself, unhealthy, and thing to themselves, “Hmm, this is something that people should be aware of.”
Meowser, yeah I think mine was a bad response to what you’d written. And also - just because it had been on my mind - I was thinking about a very specific scenario (basically when you’re directly interrogated about *your* habits) where responding to it at face value is a big awful mistake
But yeah, you’re right, in other situations undermining the stereotypes is not only unavoidable it’s a damn good thing and I didn’t mean to say that you should *never* respond to it. Hell, whatever ammunition you’ve got, throw at it. But responding to the questions and accusations without also (and preferably first) attacking them and the frame is just not all that effective. I like your swiftboating analogy. But I’m not advocating no response. I’m comparing a “no, I never stopped beating my wife” response vs. a “what’s wrong with you for asking that question?” response.
I don’t know the experience of others, but my experience has been for the last fifteen years I’ve been introducing myself to people, and when they ask me if I’m trying to lose weight (or if I’m really going to order desert, or whatever) asking them if they have any health issues. When they say yes, because most people do have health issues) I responded with “Yeah, other than allergies I’m healthy, so I’m going to have dessert, how about you?”
Now, I’d NEVER say this to a fellow fatty, ever! But I’ve never had a fat friend ask me if I was really going to eat something or asked in that snarky way if I was thinking about losing weight.
It became my programmed mantra for “leave me the fuck alone, you fat haters!” It was my “out” - so now I find that even though I do not judge other fat people myself, that by using health as my reason for not having to explain myself as a copout and detriment to others being discriminated against.
I’m feeding into the stereotype by showing them and telling them I’m an exception to the rule, thus reinforcing that person’s belief there IS a rule.
I kinda feel like crap about the whole thing. But what the hell was I supposed to do? I mean, it was like grabbing a lifeboat in a storm that’s sinking a ship - I didn’t know there was a FA movement - I thought it was every fatty for him/herself!
So my apologies, but I haven’t blogged about it, so at least I didn’t contribute to any bad fatty mojo on the Internet
To expand on that, the health thing might not even come into play. Someone could see the research and decide that it is wrong for the current misinformation to be spread, for no other reason than that it is misinformation, and on that basis alone conclude that fat acceptance is a noble and worthwhile cause.
The whole line of thought was started earlier in regards to feminism, and plays to a much more general question of, “To what extent should causes consider people members who have the same goals but wildly divergent motivations?”
By the way, as someone who is, as Meowser put it, “really fucking sick” I’m glad to see people talking about the notion that health is something entirely under our control. I’ve seen many people who cling with near-religiosity to the idea that if we do everything “right” than illness, aging and infirmity will never happen to us. I’ve even seen some people who insist that science is continuing to refine what this “right” living is, and that as technology advances, we will have increasing control over every aspect of our bodies. While this is true to a certain extent, I highly doubt that this idea of total self-control will become feasible any time soon.
Of course, my most debilitating chronic condition happened in a near-random, almost uncontrolable way. I’m sensitive to this stuff. There’s nothing I could have done to prevent getting sick, and hearing people insist otherwise drives me batty.
I’ve just come off of a somewhat depressing trip, I’m overly tired, and I’m strung out by a woman-hate-fest on a blog where I didn’t expect it to be, so maybe I’m a little oversensitive right now, but I read this and it just makes me sad and tired. WHO ON EARTH has so much time and energy to stick their nose into other people’s business as to care about good fat/bad fat? I can barely keep my own head above water, much less obsess about every fat person I see and whether or not they’re healthy ‘enough’, whatever that means. I know it’s just business as usual in the world, but every now and then I get a glimpse of it like it’s new and different and I think holy shit, why take all of the effort to hate not just on fat people, but to decide which fat people in particular to hate on based on finding out every aspect of their lives? Why do people care so much about who to despise? Why does society convince us we ought to care? It’s so damned depressing.
Shakes has a feminist silver teaspoon to represent small steps against the sea of stupidity, maybe the FA equivalent should be the Shapely silver ice-cream scoop.
(wan half-smile)
Okay, I just want to throw something out here. I can’t speak for anyone else, but as a salad-loving, bacon-hating, forget-to-eat, yoga-doing, non-car-owning, stereotype-busting fat person, I just want to say that I spend most of my life being disbelieved. When I rave about growing my own greens and loving how I can pick dinner off the back porch, people often assume I am lying (’cause how could I really eat salad for dinner and then weigh more than 300 pounds?!?!). There are very few places I can talk about what I eat and how I move where I’m not automatically categorized as full of shit.
Which, for me, is what’s so refreshing about Shapely Prose (and various other fatospherian blogs, too!). It’s nice to be able to compare and contrast these kinds of experiences - and be taken at face value. That’s a rare thing in my experience.
Maybe that’s why there’s so much “I ate a salad and then did some yoga” going on. Maybe it’s nice to have that conversation in a morally neutral zone where nobody’s assumed to be blowing smoke. Maybe it’s not about preaching HAES or busting stereotypes, so much as not being thought a liar?
Yes, Tari, and I think that is great.! Again, I want to truly emphasize, Good for the HAES folks. I am really happy there are fat people out there who can do it, when I have to point out to people I know and love who say things like: There are no fat vegans. I don’t even eat vegetables. It’s an ED thing. So there’s no way I will ever be a fat vegan!
I also want to say that this good fatty/bad fatty is a meme I’ve recently run into starting last week. I personally am new to FA as a political out-loud and proud movement. Not new to the concept, but new to actually speaking out about it. Because it is newish to me, I am going to react, talk about it, and state what I need to state about it as I come across concepts and ideas, which is going to be true of every movement out there as new people join the ranks. Nothing personal is/was meant by it. I don’t care what HAES folks eat, I don’t care what not HAES folks eat. I don’t care what Colonal Sanders eats. I think everybody, even Colonel Sanders, deserves repect and dignity.
And about the pictures in the magazine that people were upset about/and the concept of bad health/good health. I would have submitted a picture; that claim about health didn’t even resonate w/ me, because WHO determines health anyway? This country’s health care system is bullshit, and the magazines that think they can talk about what is healthy and not are the same magazines produced by the same publishers that promote all the other bullshit dieting and exercise crap that we all have said is ineffective and leads to more weight gain. And all of those publishers are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies and medical industry anyway. So who are they to even ask what health is? You can see I have strong opinions about the health care system.
For as crappy as my health can be, in terms of digestion, migraine, etc, I actually don’t consider myself unhealthy. What is “unhealth?” I am able bodied in all capacities. I am in no imminent danger of Type 2 diabetes, Heart Disease, or any other “fat” disease.
Maybe that’s why there’s so much “I ate a salad and then did some yoga” going on. Maybe it’s nice to have that conversation in a morally neutral zone where nobody’s assumed to be blowing smoke. Maybe it’s not about preaching HAES or busting stereotypes, so much as not being thought a liar?
YES YES YES.
Our worth as people shouldn’t be determined on what we eat or if we exercise. The only person you need to justify those activities to is yourself.
Maybe that’s why there’s so much “I ate a salad and then did some yoga” going on.
It’s also nice to have a space to share the myriad of ways in which you’ve learned to really connect to your body. This, for many people, is a New Thing. Were taught from birth to be disconnected from our bodies, to deny ourselves the foods we want, to repress and hide our sexuality, to measure our self-worth by the numbers on the scale. So, when you finally connect with yourself - holistically, spiritually, mentally and physically - it can be pretty damn exciting and I completely understand the need to blog about it from the rooftops.
And I also think that, for some people, eating healthier foods and taking care of their bodies goes hand-in-hand with increased self-esteem and personal autonomy. When you begin to love yourself and respect and appreciate your body, regardless of its size, you also begin to treat it better, to nourish it as the beautiful, supportive, incredible body that it is, instead of something hideous to be whittled, subdued, overpowered and controlled. In short, you begin to inhabit your body, instead of fighting it. So, this be yet another reason so many FA bloggers rave about their healthy lifestyles. To them, it’s a sign of personal accomplishment and political success - not an intentional and willful attempt to make others not as advanced in their own journeys feel bad about themselves.
The FA movement, and specifically this blog, have done so much for me. I’m seriously a much more confidant and secure individual because of you guys.
But I still do feel bad sometimes when the whole “salad and yoga” bit comes up. I think I’ve really had to work on defining what fat acceptance means for me personally. I know this isn’t the case, but sometimes it seems to me like eating “good” foods and exercising is the goal of HAES/intuitive eating. I KNOW it isn’t, but I often have to consciously remind myself that it isn’t. And that no matter what eating happily or moving happily is to some of my fellow fatties, what matters most in my life is what it means to me. Personally, I think this is where a lot of my personal “bad fatty” thinking starts to play in - I start trying to define myself by other peoples terms. And I know this isn’t what it’s about, but I do think it’s important to try to address these issues from many angles.
If that makes any sense. I don’t think anyone ever really says that there are bad fatties, but I totally understand how some can feel like it’s implied, even when it is truly not the case.
I can’t speak to the blogosphere, but I really despise the good fatty vs. bad fatty thing in real life. Because I am athletic, I am the token OK fatty for a number of otherwise fatphobic people in my environment. I have taken and will continue to take them to task whenever a “but you’re different, I know you (go to the gym/skate hard/go outside)” disclaimer is uttered…but I will admit that I have used the “you can’t tell by looking that other fat people aren’t *just like me*” argument on recalcitrant fatphobes (rather than pressing the point that the “correctness” of the fat person’s habits are simply none of their business).
This is more like my take on it. If you insist on believing in good v bad food and you are still eating food that you see as bad then you are hurting yourself other people seem to be attacking you when they aren’t. We are all having some trouble with the true costs of internalised fat hatred, we are so unused to actually counting the cost, so used to just ploughing on regardless that it can become hard to see that these seemingly small things, can have such a bad effect.
I’m glad that us fatties have such different styles and ways of eating, that is the point, we are no different to those of other weights.
I might be misinterpreting you here - but I do have a problem with the idea that people who don’t live the way you describe are not as advanced in their journeys. You cannot really tell how far along a person is on their journey because not everyone’s journey is the same and, moreover, our journeys are hardly ever linear.
Sorry to those of you who have been through ‘this retread conversation’ over and over, but many of us are BRAND NEW to the FA thing. I think it’s an important and useful conversation to have.
Because I’ve been fighting an inner battle over the GF/BF idea ever since I discovered Shapely Prose. I’ve got 16 or so years of life behind me since I realized I was fat at age ~10, and less than 3 months of life since discovering SP and the Fatosphere in general. I spent years hating myself for not being able to follow diet ‘tips’ like the beinggirl garbage. I’m sure my story is typical of many, many fat people, so I don’t need to go into detail.
I’ve found that even when I try to eat intuitively and de-criminalize food, I still catch myself justifying and excusing every ‘bad’ food I eat. Meaning everything that’s not a raw vegetable or boiled chicken, basically. It’s a long road, and some of us are further along than others. Some of us are still looking at the map and wondering which way to go.
What Rachel says rings true for me: I can see how those people, who admittedly do not follow a healthy diet or exercise regularly, might be put off on seeing other fat people promote this concept on a day-to-day basis … But in doing so, we may also unconsciously distance ourselves from those people who are fat and do not feel they fit the mold of a “good” and “healthy” fattie.
I’m one of those theoretical fat people who feels this sometimes. As of 6 months ago, I ate mostly crap, rarely exercised, I weighed over 300lbs and I’m wasn’t busting any stereotypes. Thanks to SP and other FA bloggers I’m doing much better now, but it’s SO HARD to stop comparing myself to the people around me. I eat better these days, work out a lot, and am doing my best to learn to play a challenging and aggressive sport (roller derby!) But I still feel like an outsider, and this has more to do with me than the people I feel ‘outside’ of. I’m the fattest and least fit of the group of incredibly athletic women I’m training with. From an objective standpoint, I probably eat no more than most of them and train just as hard, but my inner demon still whispers things like “You must still be eating too much and being lazy, because if you weren’t you’d get thin like them!”
This is long and rambley because I have a lot of thoughts going on at once. My point is that I don’t think anyone in the fatosphere is saying there is such a thing good and bad fatties. I don’t. I owe a lot of my health and happiness to the FA movement. I think the idea is internal, meaning inside each of us is a little voice that will always say “You’re not good enough. You’re not trying hard enough. You’re the exception.” But in the end nobody is saying that but my little inner demon, and the reason I read SP is because it helps me shut the little fucker up.
I might be misinterpreting you here - but I do have a problem with the idea that people who don’t live the way you describe are not as advanced in their journeys. You cannot really tell how far along a person is on their journey because not everyone’s journey is the same and, moreover, our journeys are hardly ever linear.
You are misinterpreting me, but I understand the call-out. I posted this late last night and didn’t have time to politically correct-check my post, and I figured someone would call me out on something I wrote.
I think it goes back to what Tari wrote:
I am personally of the opinion that a lot of people react to HAES-based conversations with defensiveness born of insecurity tied to the ongoing process of strangling off the internalized blame with which society has trained fatties to equip themselves.
Why does someone posting on their own personal corner of the web about learning to connect with their bodies intimidate you? (Not *you*, per se Queendom, but for any reader who does feel judged or intimidated) . If you are confident in yourself and in your dietary choices, regardless if they are healthy or unhealthy, someone writing about their own personal food choices and the ways in which they relate to their bodies should not make you feel defensive, inadequate, or inferior. If it does, then I suggest perhaps one isn’t as secure in your choices and beliefs as one professes. This is what I mean by “not as advanced in their journeys.”
Meghan, have you read this post? Your comment reminded me of it, specifically this part: I’ve found that even when I try to eat intuitively and de-criminalize food, I still catch myself justifying and excusing every ‘bad’ food I eat. Meaning everything that’s not a raw vegetable or boiled chicken, basically
I think “good fattie” and “bad fattie” are by far most widely present in the public perception of fat acceptance, much less so in the fatosphere or other fat-acceptance communities. I haven’t seen it here in SP, I _have_ seen it in some supposedly FA books (like Laura Fraser’s Losing It). AND I also agree with people up-thread who suggested that good/bad fattie notions within fat/size acceptance are traces left over from society’s notion of good/bad. So I try to avoid that false dichotomy whenever possible in my actions and conversations on the subject. (I don’t have a 100% success rate on that, and perhaps never will, but it gets easier.)
Unfortunately, there are lots of traits that feed into categorizing someone as a good fattie/bad fattie. And the more closely you fall to dominant cultural ideals in your traits, the more our culture would consider you a good fattie (and the more likely you’ll get picked up by the mainstream culture as a good fattie):
- for women, hourglass figure equals good fattie, with apple figures being bad fatties (all that abdominal fat, right? So bad for teh diabeetus!)
- in a LTR? Good fattie (see, someone loves her!) not in an LTR? bad fattie (lonely OR slutty. Um. What? You get it coming and going on this one).
- walk everywhere? Good fattie. Drive that car? Bad fattie (and look at the size of your carbon footprint! Gawd, it’s HUGE!)
There are others, but they have at least two things in common:
- in our collective conscious, they are perceived as binary, but in actual fact there are an infinite number of variations along the different spectra.
- there is variation on these spectra among people of all sizes. You can have skinny apples (well, women whose waist to hip ratio approaches one) and you can have fattie folks who walk everywhere.
I don’t think that HAES is a good/bad model, though, and I would hate for people to think of it that way. I recently took an online survey about HAES, and was surprised at the actions and attitudes that fell into HAES as possible choices. There is LOTS of room.
Personally, I have PCOS and some digestive stuff at work, so no, not ever going to be totally healthy, but I do what I can to feel good, and that’s HAES. Some days that is dancing my ass off with the company, other days that’s sleeping in and eating a big bowl of buttery popcorn in the afternoon. It’s all good.
Today may be a popcorn day.
SM, yes! Thanks though, it’s a good one to re-read. I need that sort of constant reminder of the positive messages, since the negative ones are still what my brain defaults to when I’m not paying attention.
I might be misinterpreting you here - but I do have a problem with the idea that people who don’t live the way you describe are not as advanced in their journeys. You cannot really tell how far along a person is on their journey because not everyone’s journey is the same and, moreover, our journeys are hardly ever linear.
I completely agree. I don’t think it’s about a single journey that we’re all on, and I don’t see HAES in terms of personal accomplishments.
If you are confident in yourself and in your dietary choices, regardless if they are healthy or unhealthy, someone writing about their own personal food choices and the ways in which they relate to their bodies should not make you feel defensive, inadequate, or inferior. If it does, then I suggest perhaps one isn’t as secure in your choices and beliefs as one professes. This is what I mean by “not as advanced in their journeys.”
Rachel, I think the point is that a lot of people are NOT confident in themselves or their dietary choices, and that’s part of how they end up here. I get what you’re saying — no one can make you feel inferior without your permission — but you know, that philosophy is a lot easier said than lived. It takes time to build up the necessary confidence.
So I think there needs to be a balance. We all need to take responsibility for examining whether our feelings of persecution are actually related to external factors or just manifestations of our own insecurity. But I also don’t think it’s helpful to say to a person who IS struggling with self-confidence — and IS struggling with feeling that her dietary choices are “bad” (which we’ve all done — and deciding to eliminate “good” and “bad” food categories is only the first step toward actually internalizing the belief that they shouldn’t exist) — “Well, if you’re confident in yourself and your food choices, you shouldn’t feel judged by me.” Come ON. Obviously (and literally, in this post), I’m the first to say, hey, don’t assume there’s judgment where there is none. But I don’t think people need to be fucking shamed for internalized fatphobia.
It just occurred to me how closely the GF/BF idea relates to the good dieter/bad dieter idea. I’m thinking specifically of Kate’s post here.
The message is constant and unrelenting: “If you’re not losing weight, you’re doing it wrong.” So the whole good/bad fattie idea is pointless - by those rules, we’re ALL doing it wrong.
To add my perspective to what Rachel said, I think part of the reason there’s so much focus on healthy eating and excercise here is because the authors and commenters on this blog have discovered: “Wow! When I excercise to move my body instead of as an attempt to lose weight, it’s actually really fun! And makes me feel so, so good!” and: “When I eat a salad because I feel like eating a salad instead of as a substitute for what I really want, it tastes really good! And satisfies my body!” Which is such a huge realisation when you’ve spent your whole life dieting and seeing excercise as a chore and form of self-punishment. And when you have a huge audience who has also spent a lot of time dieting and self-punishing, you want to help them realise that too, so they can feel as good as you do.
There’s a framework in transactional analysis psychotherapy that, when presented with rules, people tend to conform, rebel, or “redecide.” Reading through the comments here and at Lindsay’s, I kind of feel like this is a clash (well, mini-clash) between people who are rebelling and people who are redeciding.
There’s a freedom that comes from totally rebelling against formerly internalized rules, in doing the total opposite of what you’re “supposed” to do, but in doing that you’re still controlled by the rule — all your actions are in reaction to it.
But people can also “redecide” rules (I so hate made-up psychobabble jargon, I’m sorry, bear with me), which means you take what works from the original rule and throw out what doesn’t work and learn how to integrate the good parts without being ruled by the bad parts. HAES seems to me to be a redeciding of what health means, a way to jettison the “fat=death” message from mainstream ideas of health while still carrying on with the idea that taking care of ourselves is a good thing.
I think the point is that a lot of people are NOT confident in themselves or their dietary choices, and that’s part of how they end up here.
As I’ve posted before, I understand how those who promote HAES may serve to unconsciously alienate themselves from those who do not. But I refuse to feel guilty or personally at fault should someone come to my blog - where I actively and wholeheartedly support HAES - and feel personally offended or attacked by my promotion of the approach, just as I do not care if dieters are personally offended by my anti-diet stance. I do not promote the concept of “good” and “bad” fatties and I do reiterate the Fat.Rights.Period mantra, but HAES is also part of my FA platform and will continue to be. I should not feel guilty and anxious and defensive that someone *might* feel shamed should they visit my blog, read a HAES-related post of mine, and interpret tit as a personal condemnation of them.
I am not implying or advocating that we should not be sensitive to such feelings - I’ve repeatedly said that we all need to reevaluate the things that we write with consideration of how they will be received by readers. What I am saying is that we - as in bloggers who promote HAES - should not be pressured to diminish or eradicate our beliefs in and promotion of HAES. And yes, there have been calls for FA bloggers to remove the health component of FA activism entirely from the movement.
The movement has enough girth (pun intended) to accommodate a wide range of perspectives and beliefs, from those who promote HAES to those who don’t.
And I also think that there exists some gross misconceptions of HAES, owing to perhaps a familiarity with dieting by many in the movement, as well as a conflation of health with moralism. And fat people have long heard the “Fat is unhealthy!” ethos, so that any talk of “health” is tainted by such rhetoric for some. Good health does not mean you’re a “good” or better person, just as “poor” health does not mean you are financially (and morally) destitute. We really need to separate the concept of good health from our own imposed moralistic connotations of the word.
I still catch myself justifying and excusing every ‘bad’ food I eat. Meaning everything that’s not a raw vegetable or boiled chicken, basically.
I don’t want to moralize food here….but boiled chicken doesn’t sound “good” to me. ;o)
Seriously, here’s what I want to know: are folks really wanting fatties who practice intuitive eating or some form of exercise to shut the fuck up about it? Because I don’t see any other way to take away what I’m hearing is the perceived judgment that comes along with those conversations for some people.
Personally, I want a Fat Rights Movement that makes space for fat people to share their experiences of joyful movement and eating well - experiences which I think mainstream (i.e., fat-hating) culture tries to deny fat people at every turn, either through active discrimination or sheer disbelief.
Having access to opportunity to experience those things does not mean obligation to jump on the bandwagon, or negate any other opportunities….but equal opportunity to eat well and exercise are things I think fat people currently still have to fight for, right along healthcare and housing and fair employment and other kinds of access. Which is why I think those conversations are just as relevant and important to The Movement.
Just for fun, because others have already made most of my points (thanks peggynature!) I’d like to point out that, even if the good fattie, bad fattie argument was relevant, it is based on a DISPROVEN (or at best, unproven) STEREOTYPE.
http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/junkfood-science-exclusive-big-one.html
Junkfood Science has already covered this. There is no proof that eating “healthy” is even healthier!
I’m what I think a lot of people would think of as a “bad fattie”. I don’t exercise. I eat brownies for breakfast. That sort of thing. But I don’t feel put off by the HAES movement. What I’ve taken out of it is not “if you’re fat you can and ought to try to be as healthy as possible in spite of it” but “health is not dependent on dress size. Fat is not the enemy.” I *love* that.
The good/bad fattie dichotomy has been around for a long time, I think. There’s been a recent surge of the topic because, well, everything within a grouping of people is going to go in trends. Tomorrow it’ll be something else everybody’s talking about. And then eventually we’ll come back around to good/bad fatties again. Even if fat were to become normalized, I’d expect that weR