Douchehoundz!!! Special Savage Edition

Please enjoy the first three (and so far, only) trolls who arrived here via the Slog.

1) Author : Demonchild
Comment:

[Edited to add: Several people have pointed out that everything in the following comment -- which I've quoted verbatim as it came to my inbox -- is taken from the recent Violent Acres post about Joy and me. I didn't know that, since I didn't read it.* But I am now updating this post to reflect that Violent Acres readers are fucking plagiarists.]

[*Edited AGAIN to add that since she's now claiming I did this deliberately, let me amend that to "I skimmed it, read the FAQ, and heard a LOT about it in comments the last couple days." I did not read closely enough to recognize this comment as coming straight from her site. But in case anybody's still confused, take a look at the early comments where A) it's immediately mentioned that this came from VA (which is why I quickly edited the post to reflect that), and B) the fact that I originally posted the commenters' IPs here is discussed. I've since redacted them but still have the original e-mail from WordPress with the comment, featuring IP info and e-mail for the person who sent it to me. If anyone would like me to forward that to them so they can see I was responding to a plagiarist, not being one, feel free to ask. And let the record show that the first "comment" here is actually quotes from a Violent Acres post I never intended to respond to. Which means the Slog only sent us two trolls, all told. How disappointing.]

Quit making excuses! Quit telling me what you can’t do! You’re a human being! You’re capable, intelligent, and strong! You are a warrior! You can do whatever the fuck you want!

Okay, well, what I want is to be healthy without spending my life freaking out about food, and doing that means I stay fat. So I also want uninformed bigots to quit telling me I’m disgusting and a liar because eating and exercising like a normal person don’t make me thin. That’s where all my warrior energy is going these days. Is that okay with you?

“But our self esteem is in Jeopardy!” the Fat Acceptance Movement people sniff, “People make fun of us!”

Cry me a fucking river. Just because someone mooed at you yesterday when you walked across the street doesn’t mean you get to put a patent on victimhood.

And, where do you see anybody on this blog trying to do that?

Guess what, buddy, it’s not just that people moo. It’s that doctors don’t take us seriously, or treat the symptoms we come in with. It’s that the media takes “obesity will kill you!” studies seriously without ever noticing that they’re funded by weight loss companies and/or pharmaceutical companies hawking or developing diet drugs. It’s that… fuck, it’s about everything I’ve written 847,000 fucking times on this blog, none of which is about wallowing in victimhood.

Mostly, it’s about critical thinking and basic compassion.

You don’t think skinny people ever get made fun of? You don’t think people whisper about them behind their hands or constantly speculate on whether or not they’re anorexic? You don’t think they blush a little when they get up from a meal to use the restroom after they hear you quietly insist to the table that they’re heading there to puke? No one ever calls their bodies disgusting or bony or unhealthy? No one ever laughs and makes jokes about their bodies resembling little boys? Please.

That’s a lovely straw fatty you’ve constructed there, but once again, if you’d actually read anything on this blog, you’d know that A) we advocate body acceptance for all sizes; B) anyone who makes a nasty remark about thin people is swiftly smacked down by one of the moderators and usually several of the commenters; and C) many of the commenters here are thin. In fact, a lot of our readers are naturally very thin people who intuitively understand what we’re talking about, because they’ve heard vicious comments about their bodies all their lives, and they know that if black became white, up became down, and fat became culturally desirable, they wouldn’t have any more luck than we do trying to radically change their bodies via diet and exercise.

However, those thin readers are also smart enough to recognize the enormous qualitative difference between rude, hurtful comments directed at thin people and the vicious, dangerous hatred of fat people being promoted by the media, the government, and the multibillion-dollar weight loss industry.

So, if you’re fat and people make fun of you, suck it up and join the club. Everyone gets made fun of. Everyone is the object of ridicule and disgust. Grow up and get over it already.

Okay, that’s a terrific strategy. Everyone hates everyone, so no point getting your feathers ruffled. That’s exactly the kind of world I want to live in.

You’re full of shit and you know it. Having abs is totally awesome. Having gigantic bags of sweaty flesh painfully attached to your chest is not. Quit feeding people a bunch of bullshit.

Ah, here’s where we get to the real point. Breasts are “gigantic bags of sweaty flesh.” TOTALLY NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER BETWEEN MISOGYNY AND FAT HATRED.

Without physical progress, human beings are nothing. You may appear to be fat, spoiled and happy. But you and I both know you’re nothing more than a bored, angry, fat bitch.

Well, I’m rarely bored. Other than that, you got me.

2) Author : Clinton
Comment:

Interesting how you guys have turned the statement “watch and think about every bite of food” into “obsess” about food. So anyone who thinks about what they’re putting into their body has an eating disorder, I suppose. Fun with semantics.

Yeah, you sure are having fun with semantics.

We turn the statement “watch and think about every bite of food” into “obsess” about food, because hello, watching and thinking about every bite is the very fucking definition of obsessive. Which many of us know precisely because we’ve been there, for years at a time.

You’re the one who completely warped “watching and thinking about every bite” into a mere “thinking about what you put into your body.” I think plenty about what I put into my body. I think about what I’m hungry for when I feel hungry. I think about new recipes. I think about what’s in the fridge when it’s time to make dinner. What I don’t think is, “OH MY GOD, WILL THIS BE THE BITE THAT MAKES ME FATTY FAT FAT FAT?”

I guess it’s the same way you counter anecdotal evidence with your own anecdotal evidence, and respond to this supposed “fat hate” with ad hominem attacks: Dan Savage is an aging gay hipster who’ll lose his job soon and Chris Matthews is a misogynist with a giant head. Argumentation at it’s finest over here.

I counter anecdotal evidence with my own anecdotal evidence and links out the wazoo to actual studies in medical journals, book recommendations, and common sense.

Dan Savage is an aging gay hipster, which I have to assume even he would admit. Whether he’ll lose his job soon is a matter of speculation, but it wasn’t my speculation anyway. I never said I want him to lose his job, I just agreed it would be pretty delightful if he became irrelevant.

Finally, dude. Chris Matthews is quite demonstrably a misogynist with a giant head. You’re not helping your credibility by implying that that’s not true.

And yet Dan Savage’s point stands. Eating healthy and exercising will help people lose weight.

Actually, eating healthy and exercising will help most people maintain their weight. Sure, if you’re starting out eating nothing but junkfood and being completely sedentary, it will probably help you lose some. Whether you keep it off is a whole other story. But most fat people do not live on junkfood and refuse to get off the couch.

It’s not a moral imperative, you don’t have to do it if you don’t want to, but don’t seek comfort by claiming that it’s impossible. It isn’t. People do it.

No, it’s not impossible. There are a number of ways to do it. 3, to be precise.

  1. Start out completely sedentary and with a diet that consists of nothing but enormous quantities of junk food. Change those habits. Watch the weight fly off! This might work for the tiny percentage of fat people who do start off that way. Unless, of course, they have actual eating disorders, which many in that tiny percentage do; that’s a whole other ball of wax. Then your best option is to seek treatment and find out that nobody knows what causes the disorder, nobody knows what to do about it, and in the meantime, you should just try eating less. That will totally solve the problem, much like telling an anorexic to eat more would.
  2. Eat whatever number of daily calories is required to keep you thin, even if it’s well below the WHO’s threshold for starvation. If that doesn’t work, exercise compulsively. If that doesn’t work, hate and blame yourself.
  3. Have surgery that will force disordered eating on you for the rest of your natural life, which might not be very long, thanks to all the potential complications of the surgery.

See? Just look how easy it is!

Does that make me a fat hater to say so?

Yep!

No. I don’t hate fat people at all.

Obviously.

It might be more comfortable for you to label me that way, since I don’t agree with every line of your doctrine, but you’re kidding yourselves.

Sweet Jesus, if I had a nickel…

3) Author : Rick
Comment:

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

I was fat as a boy, ranging anywhere from 35 to 50 lbs, and when you are a kid, believe me, that is a LOT of weight. But it was inevitable when you lived like I did, coming home straight from school, going through two bowls of ice cream and a score of cookies each day as I sat in front of the TV for several hours, then had dinner, before watching more TV, and then bedtime.

So you were a sedentary binge-eater, then. Thank you for sharing your experience, which, as we’ve discussed already, is not the typical fatty experience.*

As an adolescent I lost the weight through a sensible diet and a new interest in bicycling and walking, and have pretty much kept it off since.

So, by being sedentary and binge-eating, you got yourself up over your natural setpoint range. When you started to eat normally and exercise moderately, you went down to your natural setpoint range. This is not unusual for people who start off where you did. What is unusual, statistically speaking, is fat people being fat for those reasons in the first place.

There are the fat apologists — mostly women –

Hey, anybody else hear a whistle?

Naw, couldn’t be — ’cause there’s TOTALLY NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between misogyny and fat hatred.

(Yes, it’s true that we’re mostly women. But why on earth is it relevant?)

whose testimonies I have read online, and then the actual fat, morbidly obese women I have known in person in my life, and in real life, each and every one of them had terrible eating habits and resisted exercise.

Question: are you related to these women? Is that how you know them personally, and have gotten to personally observe their eating and exercise habits? ‘Cause that would make sense, considering you’ve already explained that you used to have wildly disordered eating patterns, and it’s entirely possible there’s a genetic component there.

I remember the cruel taunts and insults of my childhood, so I agree that the fat should spared that.

Gee, thanks. How about shoddy medical care? Should we be spared that? Not being allowed to adopt or have fertility treatments, ’cause letting fat parents raise children is unethical? Being fired, not hired in the first place, or not paid as much solely because we’re fat? Being used as pawns in political campaigns, since fat hatred has such broad appeal on both sides of the aisle? Accused of lying constantly? Driven to suicide by those silly adolescent jokesters? Can we be spared all that, too?

But I never thought I would live to see the day when people would push these bizarre points: 1) that the fat can’t help but be fat, no matter what, 2) that being fat is not unhealthy, but actually healthy 3) and that we, especially men, should feel ashamed of ourselves for not being attracted to fat people.

Well, your first point is simply true, if you believe naturally fat people should be allowed to eat a balanced diet and exercise moderately like normal human beings, instead of having disordered eating patterns or full-blown eating disorders for their entire lives. Which you might not, but that’s a whole different issue.

Your second point is only partially true, and only partially related to anything I’ve ever claimed here. For the vast majority of people, fat is not intrinsically unhealthy. Excessive junk food consumption and a sedentary lifestyle are unhealthy, but plenty of thin people live that way, and most fat people don’t. And fat people who do eat well and exercise often remain fat.

By the same token, I have never once said that fat is intrinsically healthy (though it is correlated with some health benefits, especially in older people, just as thinness is correlated with some health benefits). Fat just is what it is; some people are made to carry a lot of it, some people aren’t. All of those people, fat and thin, can see health benefits from eating a balanced diet and engaging in moderate exercise, if they’re not already doing those things. But for most of them, it won’t make any substantial, long-term changes to their weight.

And point 3 is the straw fatty to end all straw fatties. You shouldn’t be ashamed of yourself for not being attracted to fat people; you should be ashamed of yourself for acting like an asshole to fat people. Attraction is personal and subjective. I don’t give a shit what rings your bell, and neither does anyone else in the fat acceptance movement.

Regarding the latter, I notice that while fat feminists demand that fat — REALLY fat — women be considered attractive, at the same time there is very little effort on their part to persuade their sisters that a guy with a roll of fat under his chin, a beer belly, hanging manboobs, and a wide butt is actually sexy.

Dude, what fat feminists have you been talking to? ‘Cause I’ve certainly never heard such a demand coming from any of the ones I know. See above.

And personally, I’m madly in love with a guy who has a couple of the characteristics on your list there. But no, I don’t spend my time trying to convince my sisters to find any particular kind of man attractive (especially not the lesbian ones), any more than I spend my time trying to convince anyone to find fat women attractive. Like I said, attraction is personal and subjective — besides which, right now, I’m just working on convincing people that fatties are human.

Now why is that?

It is not, anywhere except your own mind, so I really can’t help you with the why.

And sadly, Shapelings, that’s the best they’ve got so far. I’ll keep you posted if there’s anything else.

*Note to Shapelings who are sedentary and/or binge eaters and/or garden variety overeaters: I’m sorry you’re getting caught in the crossfire here. Let me be perfectly clear that being fat for any reason does not make one deserving of hatred and discrimination. It just sends me through the goddamned roof when people insist that because they overate, all fat people must, and because they lost weight, all fat people can.

139 thoughts on “Douchehoundz!!! Special Savage Edition

  1. That first asshole either is the Violent Acres author or owes him/her credit for stealing an entire blog post.

    Breasts=sweaty bags of flesh. Nothing neurotic here at all. Move along folks.

  2. Kate, you are awesome. I love how you can break down these comments and respond to them. I read them and I get so angry that all my eloquence goes right out the window and I end up sputtering, “You’re wrong! You stupid … fuck!” which isn’t very satisfying. Reading this post, though – very satisfying.

  3. Hey, everybody! Rick dropped by again!

    Keep trying, Kate. The ultimate price your fat sisters are going to pay their is their loneliness as their thin husbands leave them and fit, healthy guys refuse to date them, no matter how hard you try to brainwash us into believing that blubber is sexy and men are shallow. Of course, I know for a fact that thin wives are no more happier with their fat husbands than thin girls are eager to date fat guys, but you might as well hide that impolitic fact from your readers and yourself.

    My favorite thing about trolls? Is how the more they comment, they more they reveal about themselves.

  4. I like how Rick assumes I have to be lonely because I’m single. I mean, it does suck occasionally, but mostly, I’m pretty happy.

  5. They’re rather crazy and/or stupid and, in the case of the first one, a plagiarist, but even all that being the case, posting IPs just strikes me as being in bad form.

  6. Hilarious.

    PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT TO FATTIES:

    RICK DOESN’T WANT TO FUCK YOU!

    Please cross him off your calendars accordingly. We will be having support groups right after the local AA meetings nationwide….

    Seriously, what is it with The Dudez and “It’s all about my penis?”

    I remember a similar discussion with a straight guy about gay pride: I can’t support it because they’ll hit on me. That was it – that gay men might end up being out of the closet enough to float a phone number his direction. This wasn’t even pinched ass territory.

    What kind of self-centred small-minded arrogance do you have to possess to think “OH, hey, that person’s human dignity? Not acceptable, because I can’t FUCK IT.”

  7. I just… I don’t understand why people feel the need to come on here and make cruel comments like that. Why do they hate fat people so much?

    Having abs is totally awesome. Having gigantic bags of sweaty flesh painfully attached to your chest is not.

    *laughs*. I’m sure that’s why several of my thin friends are always bitching about their breasts being too small. (And yes, my larger friends bitch about not having abs. Which was of course THE WHOLE POINT of the video, that women are taught never to be happy with their bodies).

  8. The ultimate price your fat sisters are going to pay their is their loneliness as their thin husbands leave them and fit, healthy guys refuse to date them

    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

    a) My skinny husband adores me. He’s also under the impression that I look exactly the same as when we got married, and that I bear a strong resemblance to Selma Hayek. That’s love for you.

    b) My skinny husband is a bit self-conscious about his skinniness just because he could cut roast beef with his shin-bones, but I think he’s beautiful and perfect. That’s love for you.

    c) There are fat dudes out there, many of whom are very, very sexy.

  9. posting IPs just strikes me as being in bad form.

    I hear you, but I disagree. I gave them the courtesy of redacting their e-mail addies. Beyond that, people need to be aware that the internet is not anonymous.

  10. I love how many of the dude trolls are all, “THE WORLD REVOLVES AROUND MEEEE AND WHAT I FIND ATTRACTIVE!!!11″

    No, it doesn’t. No one is going to break into your house, handcuff you and force you to look at pictures of fat women while your eyelids are held open (a la the “conditioning” in A Clockwork Orange) until you break down and gasp, “I find fat women attractive!”

    FA does not equal “attractiveness police.” I am continually stunned by the number of trolls who fail to grasp that.

  11. kate, I love you.

    And seriously – it would be really nice if some folks would stop judging women’s value solely by their fuckability, no matter what fucking size they are. And that’s the irony: it doesn’t even MATTER what size women are, they are still, inevitably judged by their fuckability. Come the fuck on, you guys.

  12. What kind of self-centred small-minded arrogance do you have to possess to think “OH, hey, that person’s human dignity? Not acceptable, because I can’t FUCK IT.”

    Ha! Exactly.

    Also, I’m curious about how it is that Rick has “pretty much” kept the weight off since he was an adolescent, yet knows for a fact that thin wives aren’t happy with their fat husbands. Suppose he did a survey?

  13. one day someone will say things like this to my face. they’ll probably get the same reaction I had just reading. my smiling face and some nice evil deep throated laughter.

    thanks for posting this :)

  14. I always half want to have a little informative banner saying “everyone blogging here is in a happy, long-term partnership with a man, even the queer one.” But that’s just stooping to their level, isn’t it.

    Still, maybe I should write about my wedding more.

    (I’m just kidding, SM!)

  15. But that’s just stooping to their level, isn’t it.

    Well, my last two posts have been all about stooping to their level, so why not throw that on top?

    Dear Rick,

    I can’t hear you, because MY BOYFRIEND’S BIG FAT COCK IS IN MY EAR.

    Love,
    Kate

  16. See, this is what I don’t get.

    There are obviously people who find fat attractive. Lots of them. They have websites. There are some men and women who are thin and prefer a larger partner. There are some fat men and women who prefer a thin partner, and there are some men and women who can find beauty in all shapes and sizes.

    I just don’t understand how you can see the world in such black and white terms. I mean, I know I’ve had the experience of finding some one attractive that my friends didn’t, and having the opposite happen where some of my friends were oohing and ahhing over some guy or girl and I would be sitting there thinking, well, if that’s what gets your motor started, ok then.

    I mean, do these folks have some one following them around all the time agreeing with everything they say?

    I mean, would it kill anyone to admitt that some people may find fat attractive? Its totally ok to say “I personally do not want to date a fat person.” What is not acceptable is to say “No one would want to date a fat person.” Because its simply not true.

    I mean, I personally don’t see how a lot of these lovely people have friends, much less partners because they are so hateful. But obviously they do. So it would be wrong for me to say “Trolls on Shapely Prose will never get laid EVAR!!” because I’m sure they do.

    Its not that hard, people. Everyone has a different taste. The no one will fuck a fatty horse is dead. Stop beating it.

  17. I can’t hear you, because MY BOYFRIEND’S BIG FAT COCK IS IN MY EAR.

    YR DOING IT WRONG!

    Eh. I guess that only really works if a cute cat says it.

  18. “Dear Rick,

    I can’t hear you, because MY BOYFRIEND’S BIG FAT COCK IS IN MY EAR.

    Love,
    Kate”

    Way to make me shart milk out my nose. :)

  19. I always find it interesting that people who have some prejudice against fat people naturally assume that all people do, ie thin women won’t want to fuck fat men and thin men won’t want to fuck fat women. Is every fat person living in a vacuum of loneliness and celibacy? Obviously, fat people get fucked. I’m not having any problems in that regard, and I’d estimate that 85% of the fat people I’m acquainted with are having ZERO problems getting laid.

    All I’m saying is, there are clearly all kinds of people out there who are attracted to and actively want to fuck fat people. Just because some ass feels like maybe he wouldn’t want to fuck fat women, he can’t possibly understand why someone else might. And that baffles me.

  20. Then how come I keep hearing all this stuff about how much guys like aural sex?

    Oh, christ, don’t make me put something about bad puns in the comments policy.

  21. You can tell it’s a man because he’s never heard of a wearing a bra to support your bags of flesh. I also wonder how he thinks breasts are “painfully attached” to a woman’s body. They actually naturally grow there. Maybe he needs a little biology lesson.

  22. Oh, sweet Jesus. I just came home from another huge, frustrating real life argument about fat, and first thing I do is go online to relax and lick my wounds among the reasonable, witty, attractive people of Shapely Prose- and what do I see? More of the same! AAAAAAAAAAA!

    Seriously! So many things you’ve taught and explained to me, Kate & Co, since I’ve started reading you. But no one has yet explained to me where all this anger comes from. Sometimes I don’t even care who’s right or wrong, if I only understood, why all the hate, all the anger? It’s like pushing a big, red button.
    “Um, I was thinking that, maybe, I don’t want to lose any weig…” “BOOM!!!”

  23. Ok, I was totally gonna be snarky all up in Kate’s comment box…but seriously? I’m too busy giggling at the Shapeling commentary to focus.

    Y’all…are made of so much awesome. Gave me a much needed laugh. :-D

  24. Bwahaha.

    My basically-slender husband’s first marriage went to hell after his then-wife had gastric bypass. (Admittedly, lots more was wrong than that, but it was a specific, markable point of decline.) As for our marriage, he’s much more concerned about having a wife who is happy with herself and loves life and him than he is with what size I am–me being thin would be of no meaning if I was miserable or our marriage was troubled. A thin wife does not automatically make for a successful marriage. Such things cannot be acknowledged by the weight-inquisitors, however. It would take the meaning out of their crusade.

    And Kate, you owe me a new keyboard. Mine is now full of cherry-vanilla Dr. Pepper thanks to you.

  25. That was a pleasure to read. Thank you Kate. And thank you for the big belly laugh the ear comment gave me. Belly laughs are so good for the soul.

  26. OMG! I’ve had a message from Rick! He stalked me all the way to MySpace just to leave me a PRIVATE message about how disgusting and stupid I am so that he didn’t have to humiliate me in PULIC! Isn’t he THOUGHTFUL?! In that stalker way that kinda makes me wonder if I should report him ;)

    Dude is a class act! I can’t believe we’re not taking him seriously with his carefully laid out call to authority and his army of strawpeople! His gross misinterpretations of the text show the impressive level of his critical thinking skills. It makes me moist to encounter a man with such a LARGE brain and makes me wonder why I rob myself of the opportunity to be more attractive to him by not trying HARDER.

    Then I remember that I don’t fuck assholes anymore.

  27. I also wonder how he thinks breasts are “painfully attached” to a woman’s body. They actually naturally grow there. Maybe he needs a little biology lesson.

    Hee!

  28. Kee-RIST. Helga, without even having clicked the link, I’m banging my head against the desk. There might be nothing I love more than the “fat people are in denial about being fat” angle. Because WE DON’T OWN MIRRORS OR EVER INTERACT WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

  29. I’ve had a message from Rick! He stalked me all the way to MySpace just to leave me a PRIVATE message about how disgusting and stupid I am so that he didn’t have to humiliate me in PULIC!

    Jesus. Maybe posting the IP addresses was a good idea after all.

  30. Yellowhammer:
    See, this is what I don’t get. There are obviously people who find fat attractive. Lots of them. They have websites. There are some men and women who are thin and prefer a larger partner. There are some fat men and women who prefer a thin partner, and there are some men and women who can find beauty in all shapes and sizes. I just don’t understand how you can see the world in such black and white terms. I mean, I know I’ve had the experience of finding some one attractive that my friends didn’t, and having the opposite happen where some of my friends were oohing and ahhing over some guy or girl and I would be sitting there thinking, well, if that’s what gets your motor started, ok then. I mean, do these folks have some one following them around all the time agreeing with everything they say?

    They don’t believe anyone could feel other than they do because they are utterly egocentric (per Wikipedia, “believe everyone sees what they see”,) and one theory for why people are egocentric is that their psychological development is stunted in the childhood phase that is characterized by egocentrism. Some of us develop normally and grow out of it, and some of us, apparently, don’t. It makes me wonder what it is about our culture’s childrearing practices that it produces so many morons.

  31. Oh my word, twilightriver. He’s *stalking* you?

    PSA TO RICK:
    Support groups country-wide have helped us all through our grief over losing you, and we feel it’s time to move on. Although Fucking You was once on the top of our priority lists, we’ve moved past that place into a place of wholeness, healing, and baby-flavoured donuts.

    Please, therefore, leave twilightriver alone.

  32. Linda
    A lack of philosophy classes in middle/high school, imo. Nobody has to take critical thinking philosophy courses until college and even then a lot of colleges don’t require it.

    There’s also a phenomenon known as “head in ass syndrome” which is believed to be hereditary.

  33. You guys are great – I needed a laugh like this! (aural sex indeed!)

    What’s funniest of all is that these people expect to be taken seriously.

  34. I think there could be an entire post on “gigantic bags of sweaty flesh painfully attached to your chest.” I mean . . . wow. I’m speechless. It’s not just vicious and misogynistic, it’s utterly bizarre.

    And makes me think that, by choice or chance, he’s never actually been in touching range of real breasts. Which would make a lot of sense, actually.

  35. What makes me saddest about the “omg your husband will leave you if you’re fat (or old or pregnant or disabled or ill)” is how lonely those sorts of relationships must be. I mean, it is possible that my husband and I would some day part ways, but not on something so basically irrelevant. He’s losing his hair, we’re both heavier, I had 2 kids and that changed my body. We’re going to continue to get farther away from the ideal – older and more wrinkled and more affected by gravity – and I love him and hope to be chasing him around the apartment at 80. He’s beautiful because HE’S in there.

  36. Thank you, Kate. Could you please e-mail that to me?

    I don’t think he’s stalking me in the sense of tracking everything I write.

    I just couldn’t figure out why he felt the need to track me down on MySpace when I had already enabled anonymous posting on the blog that I always link to. I don’t leave links to MySpace just lying around and hadn’t even mentioned I had one until now.

    Creeped me out, actually.

  37. And makes me think that, by choice or chance, he’s never actually been in touching range of real breasts.

    Yeah, it’s basically his “bags of sand” moment. What a catch!

  38. Yeah, it’s basically his “bags of sand” moment. What a catch!

    Hah!

    You know, I don’t recall mine being painfully attached. I remember these little bug-bite protruberances that grew to clementine size in about a year and then expanded to grapefruits over time, but there was no actual pain involved. Unless my brother punched me in one. I sense an ass-pull.

  39. Haha, we just got another douchehound complaining that we didn’t credit the first few quotes to Violent Acres. I guess that confirms people’s suspicions that Demonchild is a plagiarist. It certainly confirms my already-firm knowledge that trolls have no reading comprehension.

  40. I love this website! Kate, I was going to say that you are a goddess among women, but having read all these great comments, I have to revise to say that you are a goddess among hilarity goddesses!

    I am addicted to Shapely Prose.

  41. Dan Savage is an aging gay hipster, which I have to assume even he would admit. Whether he’ll lose his job soon is a matter of speculation, but it wasn’t my speculation anyway.

    And if they’re talking about what *I* said, as I suspect they are, I didn’t even say that. I said he probably would NOT lose his job, but that his writing would become increasingly less relevant over time. But I’m allowed to fantasize about him losing his job, because I know he’d love it to death if I lost mine and couldn’t get another, just because of my fat ass.

  42. You should credit Violent Acres for the first 6 quotes you listed (out of context, mind you).

    Carla, the first six quotes were every word of a comment I received. As others have pointed out on this thread, it seems to be from the VA post, which I didn’t read. I suppose I might as well edit the post to reflect that VA readers are plagiarists.

  43. New comment from Clinton! Whee!

    Okay, so believing that exercise and healthy eating habits will help people lose weight makes me a fat hater? Seriously? You really believe that?

    Well I guess it must be true then, because hey, you have a blog.

    Let me just make sure I understand the way this world that you’ve created works.

    Stating that exercise and healthy eating aid in weight loss = fat hater

    Agreeing with whatever you say = “Shapeling”

    Thinking about what’s in the food you eat = obsessive, eating disordered behavior

    Good. Glad I get it now. Again, and let me be very clear, I DON’T HATE FAT PEOPLE. I don’t think it’s a moral failing to be fat. You can do whatever you want with your body. But don’t accuse everyone who disagrees with you (for every article you cite, there are plenty you’re ignoring) of being some kind of fat bigot.

    It’s illogical and it doesn’t advance your cause or this discussion.

    Since I just wrote an entire post responding to everything he’s now repeating, anybody else want to take a whack at it?

  44. Since I just wrote an entire post responding to everything he’s now repeating, anybody else want to take a whack at it?

    Sure. Hey, Clinton! Shut your fucking pie hole, you fucking fuck!

    Is that what you had in mind?

  45. In that last bit, “for every article you cite there are plenty you’re ignoring”, damn, Kate, why DON’T you read the entire internet before you post anything? You wouldn’t want to be accused of ignorance, after all.

    What they’re not getting is that WEIGHT LOSS IS IRRELEVANT.

    Why is that such a hard thing to comprehend?

    (granted, it’s a leap, but if I can get it anyone can.)

  46. Argh. ARGH. This kind of attitude (from the fat-haters) enrages me beyond words. I think what makes me furious NOW is that the same sort of thing USED to completely destroy my self-esteem and leave me hating myself.

  47. Clinton, I don’t think you’re a fat hater. I don’t really think anything about you actually. Which means, by the transitive property of giving a shit, I don’t care what you think. Go home and cry to your momma that the fat girls were mean to you.

  48. Wait, I am going to respond to one thing in the new comment.

    Agreeing with whatever you say = “Shapeling”

    For new readers, the term “Shapeling” was arrived at democratically as a way to refer to readers of this blog, much like Shakesville readers are known as “Shakers,” Pandagon readers as “Pandagonians,” etc.

    And once again, if you actually read this blog and the comments — I realize that’s asking a lot, when it’s so much easier to criticize me if you haven’t — you would find that Shapelings frequently disagree with me and amongst themselves.

    But please, tell me more about how I’m not advancing the cause of fat acceptance, and telling people to diet would be a better strategy.

  49. Go home and cry to your momma that the fat girls were mean to you.

    Yeah! And if you come back, we’ll sit on you!

    Tries to look menacing.

    Fails.

  50. Okay, so believing that exercise and healthy eating habits will help people lose weight makes me a fat hater? Seriously? You really believe that?

    how did he even string all this together? exercise and healthy eating habits will help [some] people lose weight.
    AND
    exercise and healthy eating habits will help people [become healthier] no matter the weight.

  51. Go home and cry to your momma that the fat girls were mean to you.

    Yeah! And if you come back, we’ll sit on you!

    Tries to look menacing.

    Fails.

    *falls on the floor laughing*

  52. Bwahahaha! Oh man, you (collective you: commentariat and bloggers alike) just took something that could have depressed me and made it into a beautiful thing.

    A beautiful thing full of teh raunch and teh snark, but beautiful nonetheless.

  53. That person can’t be real, right? Right? I mean, it has to be satire? Because who thinks like that? “Sometimes I feel bad for people, but then I remember that they have problems too and then I don’t.” That’s either brilliant parody or pure crazy.

  54. Ummm, yeah. Clinton, the key word there was ‘every’. Thinking about what you’re eating, in general – normal. Thinking about every bite you’re eating – obsessed. Here’s an analogy for you: washing your hands after you use the bathroom – healthy. Washing your hands every time you touch something, anything – obsessed. Got it?

    Furthermore, we’ve never said that exercise and healthy eating may aid in fat loss – for some people (the binge eaters or naturally thin people Kate mentioned above). We’re calling bullshit on your statement that it would cause every person to lose weight.

    Sensing a theme here??? Human beings are not robots – we vary wildly in height, hair color, eye color, skin color, propensity for various diseases/conditions, athletic ability, and a million other features. What on earth makes you think metabolism is the exception to the rule of natural variation???

  55. Why would you edit links to still uniquely identify the relevant page, but not work when clicked on? It seems like this would only serve to interfere with the trackback.

  56. Then I must confess to completely missing the point. Why is interfering with the trackback desirable? Especially since,, having since read the linked article, it seems that you’d agree with what V is saying this time.

  57. To clarify, it would be better to say that it seems like you’d at least agree with the general message. I can see several minor points of contention.

  58. Well, if Venomous Asswipe (sorry, but I ain’t typing that name anymore) was actually the one who originated the “gigantic bags of sweaty flesh” quote, that does seem to lend more credence to the “that blogger is not actually female” theory, does it not?

  59. To clarify, it would be better to say that it seems like you’d at least agree with the general message. I can see several minor points of contention.

    You think this would be a minor point of contention for me?

    Then I remember that the fact of the matter is that most fat girls are bitter and angry and filled with hatred. They can have everything going for them, but in a world so deeply caught up in superficiality and image, they’re nobodies. And while that’s sad, they’re partially to blame. Instead of rejecting the stereotype, they wallow in it. I’ve never met a fat girl who wasn’t a gossipy, backstabbing, manipulative bitch. Products, you might argue, of their environment.

    I don’t care if people read it. I don’t want the traffic to come directly from my blog.

  60. Well, if Venomous Asswipe (sorry, but I ain’t typing that name anymore) was actually the one who originated the “gigantic bags of sweaty flesh” quote, that does seem to lend more credence to the “that blogger is not actually female” theory, does it not?

    Ehh, who knows? I tend to think it’s a guy, but frankly, I wouldn’t put that past a woman, either. I remember watching an episode of Elimidate or some shit like that (yeah, shut up) where this idiot (female variety) started screaming at her curvy (and I only mean curvy, not fat) competition that she shouldn’t be so proud of her boobs because THEY’RE JUST FAT!

  61. Well, yeah. She does explicitly cite the “world so deeply caught up in superficiality and image” as the main cause. She disagrees with you on whether the victims are completely blameless, (or so I assume. I haven’t read enough of your blog to know if you actually hold that view, but ti seemed likely and your reaction seems to confirm it) but yes, I thought that would be comparatively minor.

    My error.

  62. most fat girls are bitter and angry and filled with hatred.

    I’ve never met a fat girl who wasn’t a gossipy, backstabbing, manipulative bitch.

    Proposed causes aside, tell me again how those are minor points of disagreement with someone who writes a fat acceptance blog? Are you shitting me?

  63. I tend to think it’s a guy, but frankly, I wouldn’t put that past a woman, either.

    No group is immune from assholes. I once had a very young, beautiful, supposedly intelligent women turn on me for, get this, “stealing one of our men.” I guess she was worried about hordes of trashy Canadian vixens storming the border to deflower fresh American boys. Which isn’t even close to what happened in my case, but hey.

  64. I guess she was worried about hordes of trashy Canadian vixens storming the border to deflower fresh American boys.

    Well, I know that’s why I moved back to Chicago.

  65. I don’t really get the “bitter and angry and gossipy and blablabla” theory. Since when is it a fat stereotype to be gossipy and backstabbing? Isn’t it more of a negative stereotype of women in general? I’ve seen several TV shows and movies where women gossip, backstab, steal their friends boyfriends and so forth. These are usually skinny women.

  66. I am not shitting you. I honestly think that the argument that society viewing people as useless for a superficial reason is a bad thing, which is what the over all message of that post is, is something a reasonable person would expect you to agree with, even if you disagree with the side-point that being viewed as useless by society for a superficial reason will cause a disproportionately high prevalence of negative character traits among the targeted population, which is basically what the parts you object to are saying.

    You might object to her use of the fact that the fat women she has personally interacted with have shown the negative traits listed to draw conclusions about most fat women, but to her credit she didn’t extend her conclusion to all fat women despite not personally knowing of a counter-example, and never claimed that she was being statistically rigorous.

  67. You might object to her use of the fact that the fat women she has personally interacted with have shown the negative traits listed to draw conclusions about most fat women, but to her credit she didn’t extend her conclusion to all fat women despite not personally knowing of a counter-example, and never claimed that she was being statistically rigorous.

    Good Christ. Try substituting another word for “fat” in this sentence –

    “I’ve never met a fat girl who wasn’t a gossipy, backstabbing, manipulative bitch.”

    - and see if you can figure out why this is incredibly offensive. Here are some suggestions: blonde, Asian, black, skinny, Jewish, born-again, atheist, tall.

    Have fun!

  68. Then I remember that the fact of the matter is that most fat girls are bitter and angry and filled with hatred.

    AR, you can defend this blogger all you care to, but that is not a statement that even pretends any degree of objectivity or fairness about fat girls or women. “She” hates every one of us without ever even deigning to speak to us. We’re not individual human beings to “her.” At all. Punto.

  69. Wait. What? She thinks fat women are bitter and angry and filled with hatred because a fat girl slept with her bf when she was 15?

    There’s a word for that. Let me think. Oh, I know this one! Hold on. Don’t tell me! I know it. It’s…

    PROJECTION!

    I hadn’t met any women of any size who weren’t gossipy, back stabbing, manipulative bitches until I stopped being an asshole magnet by finally learning what respect actually looks like and giving it generously to myself while extending it towards and expecting it from others.

    Perhaps her problem is a little closer to home, too.

  70. but to her credit she didn’t extend her conclusion to all fat women despite not personally knowing of a counter-example, and never claimed that she was being statistically rigorous.

    Oh, well, then that’s magically non-offensive! She wasn’t talking about ALL fat women, just EVERY FAT WOMAN SHE EVER MET. To her credit, indeed.

  71. Okay, I’ve got a message from the comments on Dan’s column… we’re supposed to quit using euphemisms like “people of size” and accept that you’re fat.

    Everybody got that?

    The Fat Acceptance movement needs to accept that the word is “fat.”

  72. The Fat Acceptance movement needs to accept that the word is “fat.”

    Alexandra Erin, bwah!

    I actually cringed more at him calling me a “blogger of size” than a dishonest, paranoid douchebag; I’m among the many who hate that phrase. But my favorite part was the commenter (I’m guessing it was “Clinton) who objected to “Shapeling” as a euphemism for “fatty.” NOT GETTING IT AWARD OF THE DAY.

  73. Good Christ. Try substituting another word for “fat” in this sentence -

    Any such substitution could still be true if that is that person’s experience with the group in question. The offensiveness doesn’t come until the follow-up question of why. For instance,

    “American blacks are more likely to be criminals.”

    “Why?”

    “Because they’re black.” OR “Because of America’s history of both institutionalized and grassroots racism.”

    Both such people are reporting the same fact, but the interpretation shows their true colors. In this case, the reason being put forth is, “Because society views them as useless for ridiculous reasons.”

    “She” hates every one of us without ever even deigning to speak to us. We’re not individual human beings to “her.” At all.

    If we’re accepting what she writes in her blog as accurate, then your statement makes no sense whatsoever considering her friendship with and overall positive portrayal of the relevant fat girl. If you don’t accept what she writes as accurate, then I can then just say that she doesn’t really mean any of the parts that you object to either.

  74. Any such substitution could still be true if that is that person’s experience with the group in question.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

    Too. Much. Stupid.

  75. The ultimate price your fat sisters are going to pay their is their loneliness as their thin husbands leave them and fit, healthy guys refuse to date them

    They don’t ever seem to factor mental health much into the “fit and healthy” part, do they?

    ‘Cause I don’t much fancy sociopaths. AMOF, I wish they weren’t rewarded by being f**ked and married by masochistic women; their loathesomeness would be suppressed and *hopefully* they’d die right out.

    I don’t hate men.

    I hate weak, conformist men who are cruel to other people because it makes them feel superior. They should be bound, gagged, and stored in a silo somewhere.

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  77. I was laying in bed last night, thinking that when it comes time for me to die, I highly doubt I’ll say things to myself like, “I wish I counted more calories. I wish I spent more time at the gym. I wish I wasn’t a fattie.” I bet I’m going to be saying things like, “I wish I spent more time with my friends and my husband.”

  78. VA simply failed to take the advice I gave her (or him) last night:

    Feel free to drop your worthless carcass over a mountain. There will be more room for my fat ass if you do so. And please take Savage with you.

    OK, I’ve had enough. I have to go and eat five boxes of donuts and hit the fast food circuit. Because we fatties need nourishment!!

  79. From VA’s new article-barf:

    “I’ve always been a big fan of evolutionary psychology.”

    Explains. Sooooooo. Much.

  80. I did finally go read Vicious Ass-twat’s blog, or tried to. The venom, disdain, and self-loathing that seeped through every word was too much for me, and my eyes starting glazing over. It’s sad, too, because I really wanted to make some amazingly astute comment that summed up their sad little existence, but when it’s just a bunch of foaming at the mouth it’s hard to take at one sitting.

    I did love the one that Joy “linked” to, though. I was another “fat girl” who dared to be a sexual being as a teenager and young adult, which really got the sizeists around me in a lather.

    Good times.

  81. Aaand, we have another douchehound! Who tried to post in this thread, ’cause… no reading comprehension, evidently.

    This one goes by “Reese.”

    The only thing that I don’t like about fat people, is that they cost my heath care system too much money. Just like I don’t like drug addicts (smokers, alcoholics etc) or anyone who recklessly endangers their life and then expects a burdened health care system to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for their self-generated ils. Yes I realize that some people are outliers (really skinny or really fat naturally) but most people should be within the bell curve and they aren’t. Implying human interference ie: bad eating habits.

    *headdesk*

  82. First instinct was to respond with “I can’t hear Rick because MY GIRLFRIEND’S LEGS ARE WRAPPED AROUND MY HEAD” but then, how would I see the screen to type?

    Rick and my momma would get along great, they both are eager to tell me how no one will love me because I’m fat. One thing I learned from life is that I don’t want to surround myself with assholes who would reject me for completely superficial reasons. Seriously, you can’t love someone conditionally, you take the whole person or your leave it. The fuck I’m ever going to remake myself just to have a “friend” who will drop my ass the minute I appear to be human.

    So Rick, if you don’t want it that’s fine, everyone is entitled to their own tastes, but going around advocating that people change to be more acceptable to you is just completely whack. Screaming about how you’re taking your balls and going home just makes you seem like a loser.

    Also in response to the straw-feminist straw-FA argument: Feminism and FA actually say that fuckability should be the prerequisite for people treating you humanely. That’s right, you can find all kinds of people unattractive and it don’t matter to us as long as you’re not an asshole because of it. It’s the “not being an asshole” part of the equation that trips so many folks up.

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  84. Somebody please tell “Reese” that I don’t have health insurance. Oh, I’m not sick anyway (I don’t have the DIABEETUS). I’m surprisingly healthy for a “morbidly fucking obese female.” So, I’m not costing him any money.

  85. So fat women are doomed to be lonely or left by their not-fat mates? Then why have I been happily married for 15 years (to a man so beautiful that I sometimes just stare at him when he’s asleep and wish I had the talent to capture his perfect form in sculpture), with an awesome sex life? I am also astoundingly not gossipy, hateful, miserable or unwell. Guess I’m really thin and just don’t know it, huh? And I guess when I was thin, unhealthy, insecure and lonely, I was really fat. The stupid, it burns….

  86. Then how come I keep hearing all this stuff about how much guys like aural sex?

    fillyjonk! Cut it out! I’m gonna wake my son if I keep cackling like that!

    *rolls over and dies laughing*

  87. Then how come I keep hearing all this stuff about how much guys like aural sex?

    I just snorted mashed potatoes. Much less unpleasant than sneezing scrambled eggs, incidentally.

  88. Wow, finally a worthwhile read appears in the top list on WordPress – YAY! It’s funny how many trolls there are out there. People think that their zeal proves their point further but it only shows their ignorance more than anything.

    Anywho, I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said, Kate.. I’d just like to add that there’s a lot more to breasts than sweat and fat. There’s muscle in there too, which is why some people have saggy breasts and some have perky ones.. That applies to both men AND women. LOL

    I’m definitely adding this blog to my roll.. With extra high-fat butter too! ;o)

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  90. delurking for a sec… this AR nit is a concern troll. All the slicing and dicing of the “logic” to try to get the reader to ignore the common sense reponse to that story, which is .. it sucks to be a teenager. AR says

    “If we’re accepting what she writes in her blog as accurate, then your statement makes no sense whatsoever considering her friendship with and overall positive portrayal of the relevant fat girl. If you don’t accept what she writes as accurate, then I can then just say that she doesn’t really mean any of the parts that you object to either.”

    Umm… I don’t see anyone here accepting VA’s POV as accurate. AND, more to the point, this nasty little story is not some objectively dispassionate analysis of a bildungsroman moment — it is a PARABLE of why it is OK to hate fat people for being fat.

    As a matter of fact, AR and VA are so similar in approach, I wonder if AR has a *special* reason to need to defend VA so strongly.

    OK, relurking

  91. Thanks, north_of_delmar. As I said above, I already banned AR, ’cause… yeah. But your breakdown of what was wrong with that whole convo is outstanding. And yes, I absolutely considered that “special” reason myself.

  92. I haven’t read any of the other comments, I only got as far as the one I’ve quoted below and I HAD to comment.

    Of course, I know for a fact that thin wives are no more happier with their fat husbands than thin girls are eager to date fat guys, but you might as well hide that impolitic fact from your readers and yourself.

    *FUMES*

    I can’t stand this kind of BULLSHIT!!! I love my husband dearly regardless of his weight! So fucking what if he is more than DOUBLE my weight? So what if we were the same weight when we married and he doubled his weight and I lost almost a quarter of mine? (My weight loss was due to illness. NOT BY CHOICE!)

    He is more than a fucking number on a scale. He is more than the size of his fucking pants. He has stood by me when most other men would have RAN from the batshit insane lady. He stayed with me through seizures that cracked my ribs. He’s stayed with me even though I’m so skinny I’m not as attractive to him. Through it all we are still in love and still having fun! (11 years now and I married him when I was 23!)

    So, Rick and anyone else who’s arrogant and ignorant enough to assume they can speak for me, DON’T! I CAN SPEAK FOR MYSELF QUITE WELL! FUCK YOU VERY MUCH!

  93. Venomous Asshat seems further make it clear that while she dislikes teh fatties in general, she really has it out for fat women in her FAQ:

    3. My weight is none of your business. What right do you have to comment on my obesity? What do you have against fat people anyway?

    Again, you don’t live in a vacuum. Other people do suffer the ramifications of your poor choices. For example, as you drop dead in droves from heart attacks, the price of my health insurance increases. Consider that.

    Furthermore, I don’t have a problem with fat people. I can actually forgive a lot of indiscretion if one is at least pleasant company. Fat men are generally pretty jolly folk. Fat women, on the other hand, are bitter insecurity ridden hags. So, fuck them.

    And judging by a couple of other entries, she also has this complex that every time a fat woman dislikes her, or appears that she MIGHT dislike her, it’s because she’s OMGTEHJELOUSE!!!!!1!!!!!!11. I guess it’s easier to believe the dislike stems from jealousy rather than the fact that maybe they JUST DON’T LIKE HER. To be fair, lots of thin women, including my mother and younger sister, have this complex.

  94. I guess it’s easier to believe the dislike stems from jealousy rather than the fact that maybe they JUST DON’T LIKE HER.

    Or because, you know, (s)he’s BATSHIT CRAZY and devotes the whole blog to TRYING not to be liked? There’s that.

  95. Gah, got cut off on the last post. Revised version of last paragraph:

    And judging by a couple of other entries, she also has this complex that every time a fat woman dislikes her, or appears that she MIGHT dislike her, it’s because she’s OMGTEHJELOUSE!!!!!1!!!!!!11. I guess it’s easier to believe the dislike stems from jealousy rather than the fact that maybe they JUST DON’T LIKE HER.

    To be fair, lots of thin women, including my mother and younger sister, have this complex. In recent “ZOMG, she HAD to be jealous” stories I’d heard them tell, it was obvious that the woman who was rude to my mother was a xenophobic or racist, and the one who disliked my sister simply thought she was a moron. But they stuck firmly in their beliefs that it was due to ZOMGJEALOUSY.

  96. Dear people who are shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED to find that I moderate comments with a firm and arguably arbitrary hand,

    See that tab right up at the top of the page that says “Comments Policy”? Yeah. Go read it.

    Please pay special attention to Rule 7.

    Love,
    Kate

    P.S. I hate free speech and just want to create an echo chamber of deluded women who agree with every single word I every say. YOU GOT ME!

  97. I have an honest question about all this stuff, because I think it’s genuinely interesting. Do you (Kate or any shapelings that have had trouble with weight loss) ever go to a nutritionist? Screw diets or doctors or whatever else, but just a nutritionist who would help identify foods that would be good for you. I’m not talking about weight loss and I’m not talking about diets. I’m honestly wondering if anyone knows what healthy (not weight loss based) eating consists of. What sorts of foods would you have to eat to get all of the right amounts of protein, carbohydrates and fats you need, plus the right amount of nutrients, water, dietary fiber, and whatever else. I don’t care who is fat or who is thin, but for me, if someone had told me, a long time ago, that it was okay to be fat, I would have continued eating like I was and I would have missed out on nutritional information that has helped me feel better, have more energy, and live a better life. It wasn’t about feeling full, because it turns out that you can get just as full on broccoli and salmon or whatever (if you eat enough of it) as you can on a cheeseburger or a cream-based soup or a nice big bowl of sour cream. Everyone knows what foods are good and what foods are bad, but I had no idea what a difference eating the right amount (proportional to each other) of the right good foods could make in helping me feel full and making me feel better in the long run.

  98. Nicki, yes, many shapelings have been to nutritionists. (In fact, we have at least one nutritionist who’s a regular reader here.) Some would recommend it, some wouldn’t. Personally, I haven’t been to one, but I have also learned an awful lot about nutrition over the years, starting with growing up with a diabetic mother who made me hyperaware of protein, carbs, dietary fat, dietary fiber, etc., and continuing on with a LOT of reading on the subject, both from a weight-loss perspective and not.

    What we promote here is “intuitive eating” or “demand feeding.” Basically, listening to your body about when it’s hungry, what it’s hungry for, and when it’s full. It can be REALLY hard to learn to listen without intellectually overriding what your body’s saying, but if you do it for long enough, it turns out your own cravings will tell you what you need and in what proportions.

    Some people trying to recover from decades of categorically non-intuitive eating are so flummoxed by the whole thing, they do benefit from the help of a nutritionist to kickstart the process. Others of us, especially those recovering from eating disorders, find that any prescribed eating plan — even a healthy and satisfying one — pushes too many “diet” buttons (like, for instance, the desire to eat as little as possible, no matter how dangerous it gets). So, for our mental health, we’re better off trying to listen to our own bodies than impose any set of rules, no matter how objectively innocuous, on our eating.

    ETA: There’s been some debate about the value of nutritionists in general here, so for the record, my personal take is this… Nutritionists are just like doctors, therapists, yoga instructors, friends, whatever. A good one who really gets you and meets you where you are can have very positive effects. A lousy one who can’t see beyond his or her own issues can be very damaging.

  99. Funny how the men I’ve met with attitudes like Rick’s had eating disorders themselves. Two of them ended up marrying eating disordered women and both of those marriages ended in divorce. Who knows what Rick’s life is like, but in my experience, people who pop off like this are not only unhappy but often not well.

  100. “What we promote here is “intuitive eating” or “demand feeding.” Basically, listening to your body about when it’s hungry, what it’s hungry for, and when it’s full.”

    I like this idea…it makes a lot of sense and seems like it would promote a healthy life-style. What do you do about specific cravings, like the desire to eat a whole box of candy? Obviously something like that isn’t healthy, and your body probably doesn’t actually need candy, so how do you handle that?

    Also, on an unrelated note, how long have you been trying to eat like this? Have you gained or lost any weight? (Sorry, if that’s too personal, don’t feel like you have to answer.) Do you have more energy or feel better, or is it just that you’ve continued to do it because it’s a relief to not diet? I might be interested in trying this, but I’m wondering if I can get some more specific info on how this has worked out for you, or anyone else who has tried it.

    Finally, on your site, do you have a forum set up? I couldn’t find one, but I’m not the most internet-savvy person in the world, so I might have just missed it. If not, it might be a good resource, so that other people could start threads on the same type of subjects. This seems like a pretty good community, and judging by the comments, these people seem to have a lot to say.

  101. What do you do about specific cravings, like the desire to eat a whole box of candy? Obviously something like that isn’t healthy, and your body probably doesn’t actually need candy, so how do you handle that?

    Well, in the early stages, what you do is… eat the whole box of candy, if you even can. The first step is taking off ALL restrictions and all judgments of what’s a “good” and “bad” food. Because, unless you’ve actually got a binge/compulsive eating disorder, the desire to eat huge quantities of a “bad” food is usually the direct result of it having been a restricted food for so long. The more you can’t have something, the more you want it, right?

    But what you find when you eat an entire box of candy is… you get sick. Often before you can even finish it. And you feel gross for a long time afterwards. And if you do that a couple times — without going through the usual routine of guilting yourself out because OMG YOU OVERATE “BAD” FOOD!!! (which then makes the illness seem like a fair punishment, instead of a nasty side effect you’d rather not recreate) — you’ll probably find you don’t have the desire to eat an entire box of candy anymore. ‘Cause it doesn’t feel good. And the whole point of intuitive eating is to figure out what makes your body feel good — which is sometimes a piece of chocolate cake and sometimes half a head of broccoli. Eventually, it evens out pretty nicely.

    I’ve written about this a few times, but this is probably the best place to start. And I know Jane Hirschman and Carol Munter’s book Overcoming Overeating is a source a lot of people use for the basics — though I don’t agree with everything in it.

    I’ve been trying to do it seriously for about a year, flirted with the concept for a couple years before that. I have gained weight in the same time frame, but I’m almost certain that’s because I started on Lexapro — my average caloric intake didn’t really change. Most people find their weight stabilizes when they eat intuitively; some people lose a few pounds.

    And no, we don’t have a forum, ’cause the comments sections have kind of become that. You can search on pretty much any fat- or food-related topic and probably find a lively discussion about it. And even if the thread’s old, if you want to add a comment, I’ll definitely see it and it’ll pop up in the recent comments on the sidebar, so other people will probably see it, too.

  102. I also really recommend reading Anne Lamott’s My Secret Body — it’s a beautiful exploration of the move from compulsive to intuitive eating.

    I’ve actually had the opposite experience from Kate — I’ve lost a fair amount of weight since making a concerted effort to eat intuitively, but I’m pretty sure it’s because I had just come OFF Lexapro and was returning to baseline. Which is really the point — whether you gain or lose weight when pursuing a mentally healthier way of eating, your body is reaching its level. The weight that your body becomes when you eat what it needs, instead of what you think it should have, is tautologically a healthy weight.

  103. Crystal, isn’t it amazing that Venomous Asshat doesn’t take her own advice? Does Venomous Asshat know that its blog doesn’t exist in a vacuum either?

  104. And to continue my post also,

    Venomous Asshat sufferers from what we laypersons call head-in-ass disease. There is no cure.

  105. Again, you don’t live in a vacuum. Other people do suffer the ramifications of your poor choices. For example, as you drop dead in droves from heart attacks, the price of my health insurance increases. Consider that.

    Um, no. If we were actually dying from fat-related diseases, we’d file fewer claims. Dead = no more claims. See how that works?

    Besides which, I love the assumption that “if only fatties weren’t running off to the doctor so much for all their fat-related diseases, insurance companies would pass the savings on to me.” It’s shit-lubed thinking on three levels: One, that there is some magic weight we could attain, or could have attained when we were younger, through diet and exercise that would have obviated the need for so much medical attention (i.e. genetics, weight-gaining meds and environmental pollutants that cause illness don’t exist); two, that fatties never get excluded from medical coverage entirely or avoid doctors like the plague even when they have the opportunity to go because of the potential of weight-related abuse; and three, that insurance companies wouldn’t just charge people who do go to doctors more for everything if there were fewer claims filed, because they care so very much about their policyholders’ financial health. (That last assumption especially makes me larf.)

  106. three, that insurance companies wouldn’t just charge people who do go to doctors more for everything if there were fewer claims filed, because they care so very much about their policyholders’ financial health. (That last assumption especially makes me larf.)

    You and me both, Meowser. Are there really people who think insurance premiums are outrageously high because the poor insurance companies are spending too much money on actual sick people?

  107. Wait, WHAT? I’m supposed to be lonely?
    I’ve NEVER had a problem getting a man- and I’m getting married in 7 months.

    And to a man who has some extra pudge himself.

    And lazy? Hun, I play roller derby!

  108. It’s a good thing I missed this over the weekend because it would have eaten up a lot of my Sunday to call and let all those old boyfriends and flings know that they were never REALLY attracted to my fat ass.

    It’s also apparently shocked me out of lurking.

  109. Re: the “sweaty breasts” remark. Nice to see equal-opportunity hatred directed both at women with large breasts, and men as well.l Because not all men are flat as ironing boards, either.

    Trolls are really pathetic…

  110. See, my computer crashes for a few days and I miss all the fun!

    I’m partial to a theory that the people who are most phobic about an issue (fat-hate, misogyny, homophobia, etc.) are the least secure in themselves. Fear and hate are so closely entwined that you really have to ask why a person feels so threatened by something as innocuous as fat. As good old George Hanson said: They’re not scared of you. They’re scared of what you represent to ‘em.

    Guess I’ll have to call up my ex’s and break it to them that despite the wild and crazy monkey sex, they weren’t actually attracted to me :-)

  111. Thanks, north_of_delmar. As I said above, I already banned AR, ’cause… yeah. But your breakdown of what was wrong with that whole convo is outstanding. And yes, I absolutely considered that “special” reason myself.

    I’ve been reading all of the messages on here up until you posted that. I’m for acceptance. But in order to accept, you also have to allow other people to share their opinion whether or not you agree with it. I understand that it is your right to moderate your comments (it’s your site, after all) but I don’t think you should ban someone just because you don’t like what they’re saying. A debate, which is what I assumed was going on in the comments, requires two people or more people of different points of view who wish to discuss their beliefs on a given topic. Just because AR was defending VA doesn’t mean that she should be censored.

  112. Anne, I only approved your comment to tell you why I almost didn’t approve your comment. And you’d better believe this will be going in my FAQ.

    But in order to accept, you also have to allow other people to share their opinion whether or not you agree with it.

    Other people can share their opinion on their own blogs and countless other sites with different points of view or different comments policies. I’m not censoring anyone. But as far as I’m concerned, “debates” of the kind that was going on there diminish the quality of online discussion, rather than elevating it. It’s one thing to disagree with me. It’s another thing to come in here and insist that I must fundamentally agree with someone who A) has written two separate posts tearing into me and B) made blanket statements about how awful fat women are in the very post AR claimed to think I would like.

    I understand that it is your right to moderate your comments (it’s your site, after all) but I don’t think you should ban someone just because you don’t like what they’re saying.

    Well, which is it? I seriously can’t believe how often people say almost exactly this, not only to me, but to anyone who runs a blog or message board that’s not a free-for-all. Part of moderating comments as I see fit IS banning people who irritate or bore me, both of which AR did. Either you respect my right to do that on my own site, or you think online discussion shouldn’t be moderated — and I have never seen unmoderated discussion lead to anything but pointless flame wars and a level of discourse not fit for a 7th grade lunch table.

    I’m not hiding opposing viewpoints from my readers here. I am claiming ONE GODDAMNED SPACE on the internet where we don’t have to justify the basic premise of fat acceptance over and over and over to people who clearly have no sincere interest in learning about it.

    Thanks for getting one of my FAQ answers written.

  113. Kate, I don’t know if you know this already, or if you even care, but there’s a lot of evidence that Venomous Asshat is pretty much One Giant Pair of Flaming Pants (links will follow). Her posts are self-contradictory to such a degree that what s/he writes is almost certainly made up. Likely her fat hatred is made up, as well.

    Still hasn’t stopped her from being a hero to the childfree (much to my chagrin) and the Slashdot basement troll.

  114. Just because AR was defending VA doesn’t mean that she should be censored.

    This drive me nuts. Censorship is something powerful institutions (churches, governments) do to control the less powerful. Deleting and refusing comments is like kicking someone out of the house for crapping on the floor.

    No, I won’t let you shout in my ear. Now fuck off.

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  116. I was pointed in this direction by my gorgeous and fabulous collegue, Francesca at Manolo for the Big Girl, and have been greatly entertained by this conversation.

    Also, it’s funny, but I’ve been doing intuitive eating for more than two years now without having a specific name for it. My relationship with my body was so out of whack when I started that this approach has led to my losing some sixty pounds and counting, thus far. I’m not thin now. I doubt I’ll ever be thin again, and I’m perfectly content with that. I just wanted to pop up and note for anyone who’s been thinking about intuitive eating and hasn’t tried it yet, that it’s fantastic. I’m not concerned that much one way or the other with the fact that I lost so much weight (though I’d be lying if I said I didn’t feel a tiny thrill every time I had to buy new clothes in a smaller size), but I feel so much healthier and happier in my own skin that I can’t begin to express it.

    To the reader who asked what you do about potentially unhealthy cravings in the beginning, I did have a slightly different approach because I’d been simply eating entire bags of chips or pints of Ben & Jerry’s for a long time when I started trying to listen better to my body. My approach was that when I felt that sort of craving coming on, I’d drink a glass of water and wait ten minutes. If I still wanted the fatty/salty/sugary item after that, I’d serve myself a small portion. If I wanted another after that, I served out another small portion. I quickly found that my body wanted these things, but in much, much smaller quantities than I’d been giving them to it. And sometimes I discovered I was just wanting to eat because I was bored.

    Ultimately, my goal was health rather than weight loss, but they happened to come hand in hand for me.

    So yay! for intuitive eating! It’s a healthy, happy way to live.

    Oh, and I have to say I had a big guffaw at the expense of the troll who said fat women can’t get laid by thin guys. A few years ago when I was at just about my highest weight, I got invited to have a threesome by two very slender young men who I’m not sure were old enough to buy a beer. I did have to turn them down, though, since I had a hot date with my husband that night.

    Yeah, it’s sad that we fat girls can’t find anyone to have sex with us. That must be why we’re such backstabbing, gossipy bitches.

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  118. Kate wrote:

    “Others of us, especially those recovering from eating disorders, find that any prescribed eating plan — even a healthy and satisfying one — pushes too many “diet” buttons (like, for instance, the desire to eat as little as possible, no matter how dangerous it gets). So, for our mental health, we’re better off trying to listen to our own bodies than impose any set of rules, no matter how objectively innocuous, on our eating.”

    THIS. QFT. Thank you. This put into words something that I have thought about, felt, and have been dealing with for YEARS. (I’m reading through some of the archives, I’ll go back to lurking now…).

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