Comments on: The terror of free will http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/ Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:23:24 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Sarah http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9452 Sarah Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:31:48 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9452 I consider myself progressive. Yet, I've had to leave many a liberal websites and message boards because of the outright hatred of the members toward those "fatties." It is really disheartening. I've read every single post here, and I have gotten lots of good information and opinions. It's nice to know I am not the only progressive that has these feelings. I consider myself progressive. Yet, I’ve had to leave many a liberal websites and message boards because of the outright hatred of the members toward those “fatties.” It is really disheartening. I’ve read every single post here, and I have gotten lots of good information and opinions. It’s nice to know I am not the only progressive that has these feelings.

]]> By: Fillyjonk, bang on, FTW. « The Geek Side http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9111 Fillyjonk, bang on, FTW. « The Geek Side Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:36:40 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9111 [...] Christian culture nutshelled quite so succinctly. I can’t possibly add anything to fillyjonk’s lovely analysis, except perhaps some gleeful [...] [...] Christian culture nutshelled quite so succinctly. I can’t possibly add anything to fillyjonk’s lovely analysis, except perhaps some gleeful [...]

]]> By: fillyjonk http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9090 fillyjonk Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:32:50 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9090 I'm not sure it's ever healthy to exercise like a hamster on speed -- I thought the image was very evocative, because it implies compulsion, fruitlessness, and overexertion. I exercise a lot too, but I wouldn't say I do it like a hamster on speed. I do it like a human who needs to move in the middle of the day or I'll fall asleep at the end of it. So personally, I wouldn't take offense at the simile. "Celery and oxygen diet" is all Kate originally, by the way. But I'm sure she'd be more than happy to have everyone steal it! I’m not sure it’s ever healthy to exercise like a hamster on speed — I thought the image was very evocative, because it implies compulsion, fruitlessness, and overexertion. I exercise a lot too, but I wouldn’t say I do it like a hamster on speed. I do it like a human who needs to move in the middle of the day or I’ll fall asleep at the end of it. So personally, I wouldn’t take offense at the simile.

“Celery and oxygen diet” is all Kate originally, by the way. But I’m sure she’d be more than happy to have everyone steal it!

]]> By: Thorn http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9085 Thorn Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:21:34 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9085 Madge, I see your point, and should have been clearer. Or perhaps gone with the "Celery and Oxygen diet" idea rather than the "exercise like a hamster on speed" line. The problem is certainly not with people exercising. People exercising because they enjoy it is great. People deciding that their exercise habits make them morally superior to people who don't exercise as much or at all, is not. Which is what I think we're both saying at this point. :D Madge, I see your point, and should have been clearer. Or perhaps gone with the “Celery and Oxygen diet” idea rather than the “exercise like a hamster on speed” line.

The problem is certainly not with people exercising. People exercising because they enjoy it is great. People deciding that their exercise habits make them morally superior to people who don’t exercise as much or at all, is not. Which is what I think we’re both saying at this point. :D

]]> By: Madge http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9080 Madge Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:48:23 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9080 sorry, Thorn, if i sounded defensive. I just often see those who exercise a lot getting lumped in with the anti-fat crusaders when, in reality, people exercise for a myriad of different reasons (not just the pursuit of thinness). I personally do it to tone down aggression, stress, and depression. I have no idea where my weight would be if i stopped, or exercised even more, and frankly, i don't care, because its not about my thighs as much as it is about clearing my head. if others choose to de-stress by smoking pot or eating donuts, what's it to me? sorry, Thorn, if i sounded defensive. I just often see those who exercise a lot getting lumped in with the anti-fat crusaders when, in reality, people exercise for a myriad of different reasons (not just the pursuit of thinness). I personally do it to tone down aggression, stress, and depression. I have no idea where my weight would be if i stopped, or exercised even more, and frankly, i don’t care, because its not about my thighs as much as it is about clearing my head.
if others choose to de-stress by smoking pot or eating donuts, what’s it to me?

]]> By: The Rotund http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9068 The Rotund Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:44:40 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9068 ZOMG, fillyjonk! You want people to *GASP* take personal responsibility for their choices and acknowledge that their own desires influence their actions?!?!?! *gigglefit* I'm sorry to laugh, but it's just THAT ridiculous - because you are SO right. ZOMG, fillyjonk! You want people to *GASP* take personal responsibility for their choices and acknowledge that their own desires influence their actions?!?!?!

*gigglefit*

I’m sorry to laugh, but it’s just THAT ridiculous – because you are SO right.

]]> By: sweetmachine http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9067 sweetmachine Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:42:05 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9067 <em>The message is, “Well, I suppose it’s all right for poor people/dumb people/misguided people/whatever, but I hold myself to a higher standard than that,”</em> Bingo. That's the translation. And Shade, I'm totally with you -- I'd definitely describe myself as a progressive. Which is what makes it all the more disappointing when other self-described progressives see fat as an issue that magically only involves "personal choices" and not social forces at large (ha). The message is, “Well, I suppose it’s all right for poor people/dumb people/misguided people/whatever, but I hold myself to a higher standard than that,”

Bingo. That’s the translation.

And Shade, I’m totally with you — I’d definitely describe myself as a progressive. Which is what makes it all the more disappointing when other self-described progressives see fat as an issue that magically only involves “personal choices” and not social forces at large (ha).

]]> By: Thorn http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9066 Thorn Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:02:57 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9066 Madge, Becky and sweetmachine already pretty much answered for me, but just to kind of round it out - I certainly don't expect everyone to be the same. People who exercise because they enjoy it, or eat a certain kind of diet because that's their preference - hey, have at it. That's great. But it's not about those behaviors. I know plenty of fat people who like to exercise and prefer a vegetarian diet or a diet high in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, etc. etc. But the prejudice comes through in the word choice "...<i>one's</i> health," and by the identification of a particular number on the scale as the tipping point between "okay" and "not okay." These people aren't talking behaviors either, at that point. Instead, when someone says something like that, the message is not, "Hey, it's cool, you do your thing and I'll do mine." The message is, "Well, I suppose it's all right for poor people/dumb people/misguided people/whatever, but I hold myself to a higher standard than that," which basically confers upon thinness a certainly level of moral superiority over being fat. And as sweetmachine pointed out - it's a message that we rightly identify as discriminatory when it's put out there about other progressive issues, so what makes fat so different? Whether it's a "choice" or not really isn't even the issue. Most progressives support the right of people to modify their bodies, in the form of tattoos or piercings or whatever. Me, I'm not really into it. I've got pierced ears, and have talked for years about "maybe someday" get a tattoo, but I'm also pretty sure it'll never happen. But that doesn't make me superior to anyone. It /is/ a personal choice, and as far as I and most progressives I know are concerned, one which in no way reflects upon the value or morality of the people making the choices. The kind of statement I described in my previous comment does not presuppose that fat vs. thing are similarly value-neutral, and that's what I was addressing. Madge, Becky and sweetmachine already pretty much answered for me, but just to kind of round it out – I certainly don’t expect everyone to be the same. People who exercise because they enjoy it, or eat a certain kind of diet because that’s their preference – hey, have at it. That’s great.

But it’s not about those behaviors. I know plenty of fat people who like to exercise and prefer a vegetarian diet or a diet high in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, etc. etc. But the prejudice comes through in the word choice “…one’s health,” and by the identification of a particular number on the scale as the tipping point between “okay” and “not okay.” These people aren’t talking behaviors either, at that point.

Instead, when someone says something like that, the message is not, “Hey, it’s cool, you do your thing and I’ll do mine.” The message is, “Well, I suppose it’s all right for poor people/dumb people/misguided people/whatever, but I hold myself to a higher standard than that,” which basically confers upon thinness a certainly level of moral superiority over being fat. And as sweetmachine pointed out – it’s a message that we rightly identify as discriminatory when it’s put out there about other progressive issues, so what makes fat so different?

Whether it’s a “choice” or not really isn’t even the issue. Most progressives support the right of people to modify their bodies, in the form of tattoos or piercings or whatever. Me, I’m not really into it. I’ve got pierced ears, and have talked for years about “maybe someday” get a tattoo, but I’m also pretty sure it’ll never happen. But that doesn’t make me superior to anyone. It /is/ a personal choice, and as far as I and most progressives I know are concerned, one which in no way reflects upon the value or morality of the people making the choices. The kind of statement I described in my previous comment does not presuppose that fat vs. thing are similarly value-neutral, and that’s what I was addressing.

]]> By: deja pseu http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9064 deja pseu Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:38:21 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9064 " Fox News represents that part of the country that lives in constant terror of their own desires." Nail. Hammer. Bang. ” Fox News represents that part of the country that lives in constant terror of their own desires.”

Nail. Hammer. Bang.

]]> By: Becky http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9062 Becky Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:21:32 +0000 http://kateharding.net/2007/08/31/the-terror-of-free-will/#comment-9062 That's true Shade, and I didn't mean to imply all progressives are that way. Just... a lot more than I'm comfortable with. And it's true that most progressives support people's rights to do what they want with their bodies, but to a large extent it's: "I'll support your legal right to do what you want with your body, but I'm still going to try to shame and bully you into doing what I think you should be doing with it". You know? That's how progressives end up supporting legalising drugs but putting prohibitively high taxes on cigarettes. It's not that they think drugs are better for you than cigarettes, it's that they think everyone should have the choice to smoke or do drugs, but that they should choose not to. And I know that's not all progressives and maybe not most, but it's an uncomfortably large number of them. That’s true Shade, and I didn’t mean to imply all progressives are that way. Just… a lot more than I’m comfortable with. And it’s true that most progressives support people’s rights to do what they want with their bodies, but to a large extent it’s: “I’ll support your legal right to do what you want with your body, but I’m still going to try to shame and bully you into doing what I think you should be doing with it”. You know? That’s how progressives end up supporting legalising drugs but putting prohibitively high taxes on cigarettes. It’s not that they think drugs are better for you than cigarettes, it’s that they think everyone should have the choice to smoke or do drugs, but that they should choose not to. And I know that’s not all progressives and maybe not most, but it’s an uncomfortably large number of them.

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