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	<title>Comments on: Fat Is Contagious!</title>
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	<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/</link>
	<description>2007-2010</description>
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		<title>By: divamover</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-111058</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[divamover]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-111058</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read a different take on the data from the Framingham Heart Study that appears in the new WIRED magazine.  After reading it, I was left with a much more positive impression than you were.

The way I read the article, the researchers took an original approach when they organized the data into networks.  Patterns were more clearly revealed by  so doing, and some very interesting correlations appeared.  As we all know, correlation is not the same as causation.

In &quot;The Tipping Point,&quot; Malcolm Gladwell used a model from epidemiology as a metaphor to shed light on how fashions, fads, and ideas spread.  &quot;Contagion&quot; was a useful metaphor to carry through his  book.  Because that idea was so understandable, many more writers now use the contagion metaphor.  It certainly gets people riled up!  I don&#039;t think Malcolm Gladwell intended that we should look for a  biological agent of transmission  for social behaviors, or &quot;contagion&quot; in the literal sense.  LIkewise, in the WIRED article, I did not take the idea of obesity being &quot;catching&quot; or spreading  through a social  circle in a literal sense, as you seem to have done.  

What is much more interesting to me is recent research in neuroscience regarding mirror neurons.  Apparently, if I am in a good mood, my brain is making certain chemicals and  the neurons begin to organize in a particular way.  If you are within a certain physical radius of me (I think it&#039;s about 2 meters), your brain will begin to make the same chemicals and your neurons will organize in the same way. We begin to &quot;mirror&quot; each other.  This might be another factor involved in the universal observation that &quot;Birds of a feather flock together.&quot;

The  WIRED article was careful  to portray the study as showing likelihood, or probability, which exists along a  spectrum.   When I understand that such patterns and tendencies exist, I can make more intelligent choices regarding my own behaviors and attitudes.

My hopeful interpretation:  We have almost unlimited ability to  change in whatever way we want -- either inspired by, or in spite of, the people who surround  us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read a different take on the data from the Framingham Heart Study that appears in the new WIRED magazine.  After reading it, I was left with a much more positive impression than you were.</p>
<p>The way I read the article, the researchers took an original approach when they organized the data into networks.  Patterns were more clearly revealed by  so doing, and some very interesting correlations appeared.  As we all know, correlation is not the same as causation.</p>
<p>In &#8220;The Tipping Point,&#8221; Malcolm Gladwell used a model from epidemiology as a metaphor to shed light on how fashions, fads, and ideas spread.  &#8220;Contagion&#8221; was a useful metaphor to carry through his  book.  Because that idea was so understandable, many more writers now use the contagion metaphor.  It certainly gets people riled up!  I don&#8217;t think Malcolm Gladwell intended that we should look for a  biological agent of transmission  for social behaviors, or &#8220;contagion&#8221; in the literal sense.  LIkewise, in the WIRED article, I did not take the idea of obesity being &#8220;catching&#8221; or spreading  through a social  circle in a literal sense, as you seem to have done.  </p>
<p>What is much more interesting to me is recent research in neuroscience regarding mirror neurons.  Apparently, if I am in a good mood, my brain is making certain chemicals and  the neurons begin to organize in a particular way.  If you are within a certain physical radius of me (I think it&#8217;s about 2 meters), your brain will begin to make the same chemicals and your neurons will organize in the same way. We begin to &#8220;mirror&#8221; each other.  This might be another factor involved in the universal observation that &#8220;Birds of a feather flock together.&#8221;</p>
<p>The  WIRED article was careful  to portray the study as showing likelihood, or probability, which exists along a  spectrum.   When I understand that such patterns and tendencies exist, I can make more intelligent choices regarding my own behaviors and attitudes.</p>
<p>My hopeful interpretation:  We have almost unlimited ability to  change in whatever way we want &#8212; either inspired by, or in spite of, the people who surround  us.</p>
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		<title>By: Hoyden About Town</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-75826</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hoyden About Town]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-75826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] big ol&#8217; shuffling mob of zombies, out to accelerate global warming and eat babies and spread contagious fat to poor innocent [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] big ol&#8217; shuffling mob of zombies, out to accelerate global warming and eat babies and spread contagious fat to poor innocent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kateharding</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-25477</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kateharding]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-25477</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another Fattie, I think it&#039;s a matter of the heritability of fatness being much like other characteristics. My sisters and I are all short, like my parents, but my brother is taller than average. I got blonde hair that lasted longer than anybody else&#039;s (though it&#039;s probably brown now). One of my sisters has green eyes, the rest of us have blue. I have my mom&#039;s delicate bones, all three of my sibs have my dad&#039;s medium bones. Etc., etc. Not everybody&#039;s going to get exactly the same fatness genes -- that doesn&#039;t mean the genes aren&#039;t there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another Fattie, I think it&#8217;s a matter of the heritability of fatness being much like other characteristics. My sisters and I are all short, like my parents, but my brother is taller than average. I got blonde hair that lasted longer than anybody else&#8217;s (though it&#8217;s probably brown now). One of my sisters has green eyes, the rest of us have blue. I have my mom&#8217;s delicate bones, all three of my sibs have my dad&#8217;s medium bones. Etc., etc. Not everybody&#8217;s going to get exactly the same fatness genes &#8212; that doesn&#8217;t mean the genes aren&#8217;t there.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Fattie</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-25475</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Another Fattie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-25475</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I always found it strange EVERY where I looked/read there was always one thinner sister and one more heavier.

I am the thinner sister and finally see 185 on the scale for the very first time since I was like 12 or 13. 

But we both have different daddies, is that factored in as well?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always found it strange EVERY where I looked/read there was always one thinner sister and one more heavier.</p>
<p>I am the thinner sister and finally see 185 on the scale for the very first time since I was like 12 or 13. </p>
<p>But we both have different daddies, is that factored in as well?</p>
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		<title>By: Acid Test &#187; Science, logic, and infidelity</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-16372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Acid Test &#187; Science, logic, and infidelity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-16372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] &#8220;social obesity.&#8221; (New England Journal of Medicine article) It sent Kate Harding into a well-deserved rant. Very briefly, the authors re-analyzed data from the huge, long term Framingham heart study, and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;social obesity.&#8221; (New England Journal of Medicine article) It sent Kate Harding into a well-deserved rant. Very briefly, the authors re-analyzed data from the huge, long term Framingham heart study, and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Minivanmomma</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-15470</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Minivanmomma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-15470</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow so hanging out with skinny people is going to make me thin?  My best friend is skinny and she eats more than I do and is a total couch potato.  

we have a way of referring to this kind of thing back home: 

                            Horseshit.  :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow so hanging out with skinny people is going to make me thin?  My best friend is skinny and she eats more than I do and is a total couch potato.  </p>
<p>we have a way of referring to this kind of thing back home: </p>
<p>                            Horseshit.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: celebritywedding</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-8244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[celebritywedding]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 19:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-8244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The popularity of this &#039;fat contagion&#039; story says a lot about our social climate, and most of what it says makes me want to hang my head or vomit. But the very worst of it all is that people seem to absolutely NO critical eye when it comes to social/human subjects research. Is there no social sciences education in out country? Do Americans not learn anything about statistics, or, gasp!, basic logic?
Like I say to my sociology students: Research methods are important! For real!
Sherie Sanders says &quot;If Tom put down Harry as a friend on his contact sheet and Harry gained weight, Tom also had a higher risk of gaining weight. If they both put down each other, their risk was even higher. But if Harry put down Tom and Tom did not reciprocate, Tom had no increased risk of weight gain. In other words, if you admire a fat person you are in trouble. If a fat person admires you, you are safe from a cellulite attack. At least that is how Dick (oh I guess it is Nick - it just seems a Dick must be involved here somehow!) interprets it. In the first scenario Harry serves as Tom’s reference group so Tom doesn’t mind his tummy too terribly. But are we so SURE that the 3rd scenario (Tom doesn’t put Harry down as a contact) means he doesn’t admire him? That they are not friends? Maybe Tom knew Harry already put him down as a contact so he wanted to give a 3rd person as additional backup. Or a million other reasons. We just don’t know!!!!!&quot;

Absolutely! We have no idea. How about this interpretation of the data: fat people are more likely to admit to having fat friends, while thin people snub, ignore, or block out the overweight people in their social networks? We could also, potentially, read the &#039;results&#039; of this &#039;study&#039; as showing the tremendous stigma inflicted on overweight people in the population in question.

Imagine you&#039;re playing one of those logic games from Gifted and Talented elementary school class and look at the scenario again, is it possible that we can interpret it as I&#039;ve suggested?

&quot;If Tom put down Harry as a friend on his contact sheet and Harry gained weight, Tom also had a higher risk of gaining weight. If they both put down each other, their risk was even higher. But if Harry put down Tom and Tom did not reciprocate, Tom had no increased risk of weight gain. In other words, if you admire a fat person you are in trouble. If a fat person admires you, you are safe from a cellulite attack.&quot;

The most misleading part of these &quot;studies&quot; and their reporting is the idea of &#039;risk.&#039; That is, they report correlation as &#039;risk,&#039; which is then read as causation. Of course, the fact of the matter is that this kind of study cannot prove causation. It can only prove that the set of people who admitted being friends with people who gaimed weight contained more people who gained weight themselves in the study period. 

The fact that sickle-cell anemia is more common in people with curly hair (e.g., people of African descent) than in people with straight hair does not mean that curly hair causes sickle-cell amemia. 

Please everyone, say it again, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. 
I&#039;m worried about stereotyping and defamation, sure, but I am more worried about a complete lack of any kind of ability to interpret data. Especially when it seems to have been tolerated by a respected peer-reviewed journal. For shame, American education system. For shame, NEJM.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The popularity of this &#8216;fat contagion&#8217; story says a lot about our social climate, and most of what it says makes me want to hang my head or vomit. But the very worst of it all is that people seem to absolutely NO critical eye when it comes to social/human subjects research. Is there no social sciences education in out country? Do Americans not learn anything about statistics, or, gasp!, basic logic?<br />
Like I say to my sociology students: Research methods are important! For real!<br />
Sherie Sanders says &#8220;If Tom put down Harry as a friend on his contact sheet and Harry gained weight, Tom also had a higher risk of gaining weight. If they both put down each other, their risk was even higher. But if Harry put down Tom and Tom did not reciprocate, Tom had no increased risk of weight gain. In other words, if you admire a fat person you are in trouble. If a fat person admires you, you are safe from a cellulite attack. At least that is how Dick (oh I guess it is Nick &#8211; it just seems a Dick must be involved here somehow!) interprets it. In the first scenario Harry serves as Tom’s reference group so Tom doesn’t mind his tummy too terribly. But are we so SURE that the 3rd scenario (Tom doesn’t put Harry down as a contact) means he doesn’t admire him? That they are not friends? Maybe Tom knew Harry already put him down as a contact so he wanted to give a 3rd person as additional backup. Or a million other reasons. We just don’t know!!!!!&#8221;</p>
<p>Absolutely! We have no idea. How about this interpretation of the data: fat people are more likely to admit to having fat friends, while thin people snub, ignore, or block out the overweight people in their social networks? We could also, potentially, read the &#8216;results&#8217; of this &#8216;study&#8217; as showing the tremendous stigma inflicted on overweight people in the population in question.</p>
<p>Imagine you&#8217;re playing one of those logic games from Gifted and Talented elementary school class and look at the scenario again, is it possible that we can interpret it as I&#8217;ve suggested?</p>
<p>&#8220;If Tom put down Harry as a friend on his contact sheet and Harry gained weight, Tom also had a higher risk of gaining weight. If they both put down each other, their risk was even higher. But if Harry put down Tom and Tom did not reciprocate, Tom had no increased risk of weight gain. In other words, if you admire a fat person you are in trouble. If a fat person admires you, you are safe from a cellulite attack.&#8221;</p>
<p>The most misleading part of these &#8220;studies&#8221; and their reporting is the idea of &#8216;risk.&#8217; That is, they report correlation as &#8216;risk,&#8217; which is then read as causation. Of course, the fact of the matter is that this kind of study cannot prove causation. It can only prove that the set of people who admitted being friends with people who gaimed weight contained more people who gained weight themselves in the study period. </p>
<p>The fact that sickle-cell anemia is more common in people with curly hair (e.g., people of African descent) than in people with straight hair does not mean that curly hair causes sickle-cell amemia. </p>
<p>Please everyone, say it again, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION.<br />
I&#8217;m worried about stereotyping and defamation, sure, but I am more worried about a complete lack of any kind of ability to interpret data. Especially when it seems to have been tolerated by a respected peer-reviewed journal. For shame, American education system. For shame, NEJM.</p>
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		<title>By: kateharding</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-7963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kateharding]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-7963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark, I used the plural of &quot;book&quot; because I referred to &quot;Campos and company,&quot; not just Campos.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I used the plural of &#8220;book&#8221; because I referred to &#8220;Campos and company,&#8221; not just Campos.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-7954</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-7954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;That might be because Campos and company have published entire books explaining their assertion that there’s no obesity epidemic and didn’t feel the need to repeat themselves.&quot;

Yes, Kate, but Campos&#039;s book (there&#039;s only one, &quot;The Obesity/Diet Myth&quot;) is not peer reviewed. The paper you cite was his attempt to counter this common objection against his book, that his ideas and interpretations were not critiqued by experts in the fields (nor even passed by the authors of the papers he cites in most cases).

As the response papers in that issue of the journal and following issues demonstrated, when a few of his ideas and interpretations were floated onto the radar of experts, they were made short work of.

In your case also, I would ask that you pick up the phone and pass your interpretation by the original authors of papers you dissect. These people are easy to find on university web sites and usually willing to talk to people asking about their research. If you&#039;re shy, try e-mail, but from personal experience, you get a lot more done quickly by phone. If you&#039;re poor, look into Skype.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That might be because Campos and company have published entire books explaining their assertion that there’s no obesity epidemic and didn’t feel the need to repeat themselves.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, Kate, but Campos&#8217;s book (there&#8217;s only one, &#8220;The Obesity/Diet Myth&#8221;) is not peer reviewed. The paper you cite was his attempt to counter this common objection against his book, that his ideas and interpretations were not critiqued by experts in the fields (nor even passed by the authors of the papers he cites in most cases).</p>
<p>As the response papers in that issue of the journal and following issues demonstrated, when a few of his ideas and interpretations were floated onto the radar of experts, they were made short work of.</p>
<p>In your case also, I would ask that you pick up the phone and pass your interpretation by the original authors of papers you dissect. These people are easy to find on university web sites and usually willing to talk to people asking about their research. If you&#8217;re shy, try e-mail, but from personal experience, you get a lot more done quickly by phone. If you&#8217;re poor, look into Skype.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Et Cetera &#187; Fat Panic</title>
		<link>http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-5427</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah Et Cetera &#187; Fat Panic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kateharding.net/2007/07/25/fat-is-contagious/#comment-5427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] responses to just how fucking awful this is, see Is Fat Hatred Contagious by Peggy Elam and Fat Is Contagious! by Kate Harding.  August 02nd 2007 Posted to [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] responses to just how fucking awful this is, see Is Fat Hatred Contagious by Peggy Elam and Fat Is Contagious! by Kate Harding.  August 02nd 2007 Posted to [...]</p>
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