A few people have sent me the link to this article about Leonard Nimoy’s Full Body Project (thanks!), in case I wanted to comment on it. But, other than “Awesome!” I don’t have much to say that other people haven’t covered already.
Zuzu at Feministe: “He gets it.”
fat fu says, yeah, he gets it, except for the part at the end where he mentions that he doesn’t want to fuck fat chicks. Sigh.
Susan Stinson says it’s an excellent article, but let’s also keep in mind that using words like “girth” and “obese” in an effort to be polite is totally fucking misguided, as is asking the artist if he’s sexually attracted to his subjects in the first place.
Rachel S. at Alas, A Blog wonders about generational differences in attitudes toward fat, and whether Nimoy’s being an old fart has anything to do with it.
I say *nodnod* to all of the above and will add that I think the last line is just one more indication that, as long as journalists remain consciously or unconsciously fatphobic and generally perplexed by the mere concept of fat people being attractive (or healthy), every step forward like Nimoy’s is going to be dragged two steps back by the reporting on it.
I mean, I want to commend Abby Ellin for a mostly great article, but that last line is a real kick in the head. First, since when do New York Times reporters ask artists whether they want to bang their models? Isn’t that the kind of thing teenaged boys wonder about, not serious adults writing for the paper of record? And second, why must she end on that note? Imagine if she’d left it at the previous line:
And what of his own attitude toward fat women?
“I do think they’re beautiful,” he said. “They’re full-bodied, full-blooded human beings.”
Bam. -30-. Imagine that. You’d walk away from the article with a whole different impression, wouldn’t you?
Sigh.
First, since when do New York Times reporters ask artists whether they want to bang their models?
Well, they seem to have this idea that models aren’t fully human, judging from this recent headline for a story about a designer allegedly raping his models.
Oops, bad code, sorry–here’s the link:
http://tinyurl.com/2fevc2
Ooh, yeah, I saw that before, Laura. Unbefuckinglievable.
Agreed. That last line really soured me on the whole story. Of course Leonard Nimoy doesn’t find fat women a turn-on — he’s a real man! What did you think he was, some kind of pervert? It smacks of, “Oops, better protect him from all the fat girls who are going to hit on him now!” It’s insulting not just to us, but to the men who really do legitimately love us and are not perverts, damn it.
I have a slightly different take on that last line. I actually found it quite interesting, because we never–and I mean never–see a man in the mainstream media make any distinction between “beauty” and “sex appeal.” The whole “she’s pretty” / “I’d fuck her” and corresponding “I wouldn’t fuck her” / “she’s ugly” associations are so axiomatic that it actually shocked me to see them extricated from one another so casually like that.
I do think it’s bullshit that he was even asked about it in the first place, but, given that he was, I was pleased with his answer–and, awkward as it is (especially as the end note), I like that it might make people think about how beauty and “fuckability” are not, actually, the same thing.
Liss, that’s a really good point.
For the record, I had no problem with Nimoy’s answer–I mostly had a problem with Ellin’s placement of that tidbit. (Also, it’s worth noting that there’s no direct quote from Nimoy on the sexual attractiveness issue.)
But yes, separating beauty from fuckability is a totally worthy goal, and in that light, it’s cool. The problem with being obsessed with a pet cause is that I can forget to look at things through other filters. :)
For the record, I had no problem with Nimoy’s answer–I mostly had a problem with the Ellin’s placement of that tidbit.
Totally agree.
The problem with being obsessed with a pet cause is that I can forget to look at things through other filters.
I know what you mean. My first reaction to it was that I wasn’t sure how I felt about it and had to think about it for a bit. I’ve never had a problem with someone who says, “I’m not attracted to fat people” (I mean, personally, I think it’s just as stupid as saying, “I’m not attracted to brunettes,” because, really? all brunettes?! — but I consider it a legitimate choice, if a weirdly limiting one), so I knew off the bat it wasn’t his answer with which I had a problem, yet something was niggling at me. And I realized the problem is really that the article ends with it–because it comes across a bit as an aside, like: “Don’t worry–he doesn’t want to FUCK them or anything!” The “Phew!” of it disturbed me.
Two steps forward, one step back…
Sorry, but I have a problem with it being in the story no matter where it is. While I appreciate what Melissa is saying about dividing up “beauty” and “fuckability,” the fact of the matter is that to be a fat woman in this country (especially a white one) is to be told over and over and over and over again by the giant Wurlitzer that you are undesirable by anyone but pervs and priapists, to the point where even men who are attracted to us are made to feel ashamed and wrong for it — unless they are one of the rare men who is media-proof, like my boyfriend.
I’m sick to death of it. I’m sick to death of my friends not being loved the way they deserve to be because of it. I’m sick to death of being scared to death to lose my boyfriend because there might not ever be another like him. And shit like this just reinforces it. If saying so makes me a one-issue fruitcake, so be it.
I should say, “to be a straight fat women in this country.” I am aware that many fat women have female partners who are untroubled by being judged for their appreciation of their fat partners.
Which reminds me: If it were I who took the pictures, would I be asked if these women were a turn-on for me? My answer would be, “No, because I’m straight. But why should anyone even have to ask?”
Meowzer, I totally hear you. And I should point out that personally, I’m absolutely not apologizing for being a “one-issue fruitcake.” It’s an important fucking issue. I’m just acknowledging that yeah, sometimes that prevents me from seeing other interesting arguments.
And I do think Melissa’s argument is interesting–but I’m sick to death of everything you mention, too, and the inclusion of the “fat = categorically not sexy” implication, ONCE AGAIN, still far outweighs my appreciation of Nimoy’s comments in a different light.
I really liked the article up until that last line. No, actually, I liked what Leonard Nimoy had to say. Throughout the article the reporter had sort of an incredulous tone. Fat woman? Beautiful naked? No way! The last line just sort of solidified the author’s bias. Because the most important thing in the world to some people is ALWAYS whether or not the woman is do-able.
However, go Spock!
I’m not sexually attracted to thin women. Doesn’t mean I think they are moral failures who should never be seen. And I can still appreciate beauty when it is in a form that I don’t find sexually appealling. (heck, I think a sunset is beautiful, but I don’t want to fuck it) That’s the difference. Its fine for someone to not be sexually attracted to fat people, but the problem comes with everything else that gets associated with that.
I actually didn’t have a problem with Nimoy saying what he said. I assume that’s a factual statement and you’re not going to hear a word of criticism of Nimoy from me. This is an unqualified AMAZING THING he’s doing.
I had a problem, like you did, with the positioning in the story, and the fact that the article had this sort of fearful tone, like “we can’t let anyone get the impression that he might be a chubby chaser.”
I don’t think you can ignore the “idea” of a “fat fetish” when you talk about nude fat women. It’s at the heart of how fat is aesthetically, and sexually and socially marginalized. The snickering idea that any appreciation of fat bodies – whether aesthetic or sexual or both – is just a sick perversion or a fetish.
But Ellin could have deconstructed that idea, instead she reinforced it by the way she wrote the story.
[...] Spock Digs Fat Chicks Round-Up A few people have sent me the link to this article about Leonard Nimoy’s Full Body Project (thanks!), in case I […] [...]
“the fact of the matter is that to be a fat woman in this country (especially a white one)…”
You know what, Meowzer? I usually really really really really respect your point of view. But unless you know? For sure?
If I were you, I wouldn’t go there.
Body hatred is something I would hazard a guess ALL of us women that are exposed to Western “beauty” standards have to deal with. Remember the experiment with the Fiji island women and the televisions?
Do we really need to parcel it out by race?
(Full disclaimer: I am multiracial)
Also, in case anyone was thinking that Times columnists are generally more enlightened, as opposed to less, one of your other readers, Kate, brought this choice tidbit to my attention:
http://justinnisly.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/ny-times-leaps-to-defense-of-pop-star-who-dry-humped-14-year-old-girl/
Although, on a lighter note (albeit a shade off topic) the artist in question? Totally doable. So perhaps the columnist is just suffering a bout of yearning angst. Meow!
Live long and prosper. (I’ll bet he’s so sick of that …)
That last line rings like a brass gong. Positioned next to my head. When I’m asleep. As a journalist, I could posit a hundred different motives for why it was in there. No one really knows except the reporter and editors in question. I’ll have to agree with the above-mentioned “Spock’s not a chubby chaser! Really!” theory. Because you would NOT see that in an article if he was using non-plus-size models. However, it also seemed more than anything to try and reassure the public that Spock wasn’t some kind of sizeist perv. “Hey, everybody, he can still do that neat hand thing! Look away from the fat ladies!”
Sorry, no offense intended by the “white” comment. I certainly recognize that nonwhite women have a sociopolitical clusterfuck of their own to navigate that I can’t begin to understand.
Being Jewish, and possessed of quite a few non-Waspy physical features other than my weight, I’m not sure how “white” I really am, anyway. If you are “pale enough to pass,” though, you’re expected to conform to the blond-Wasp beauty ideal, and it’s pretty damn stringent. I felt it by the time I was 7 and realized I’d never have “Brady Bunch hair,” no matter how much conditioner I glopped on or how much I brushed.
And I do think whites find a nonwhite “woman of size” less objectionable than a white one strictly from an aesthetic point of view. Maybe that’s about condescension rather than respect, I don’t know. You probably know better than I.
Meowzer, the “white” thing stuck out for me a bit, too, when I read your post, but I decided to leave it alone, because studies do show that African-American and Latina girls have both higher weights and higher self-esteem, on average, than white girls. Technically, I don’t think it’s totally out of bounds to make that distinction. (And I also agree that among white people, fat people of color are seen as more acceptable than fat white people–though I also ALSO agree that’s likely about condescension.)
However, littlem, your point’s still valid, because we’re all still living in the same goddamned culture. So saying that African-American and Latina girls have better body images than white girls is kinda like saying Giuliani is farther left than Bush. There’s a slight, measurable distinction, but it’s not necessarily a meaningful one.
LOL. Just when I was starting to enjoy myself.
Meowzer.
“If you are “pale enough to pass,” though, you’re expected to conform to the blond-Wasp beauty ideal, and it’s pretty damn stringent.”
We agree that it’s pretty damn stringent. Respectfully, I will repeat myself. As a woman of ANY color in ANY society influenced by Western society’s “beauty” ideals, one is expected to conform to that aesthetic.
I would guess that it’s one of the reasons Asian women dye their (stunning, generally naturally brunette) hair shades like red and light auburn, and why women like Beyonce and Queen Latifah attempt to be as blonde as possible.
“And I do think whites find a nonwhite “woman of size” less objectionable than a white one strictly from an aesthetic point of view.”
I’m not sure what you’re founding your analysis on here, so I won’t challenge the point directly. However, I submit that if you even collected a few additional anecdotes rather than basing your conclusions solely on your own personal experience — which is what I’m kind of gleaning from your posts is what you’ve done — I think you might reach some different conclusions.
Kate.
I came to your blog to read the “check your privilege” post (congratulations on that, again). In that context, I find this part of the conversation somewhat ironic, particularly given the two cultures selected out. I said I was multiracial, but I didn’t say what races I belong to, or how many. For all you both know, I could be part Jewish like Meowzer (religion/culture/race debates in that context notwithstanding).
I would, with all respect, request that you review your most recent comments here in light of the portion of that post that pertains to race privilege — assuming arguendo that you really meant what you said. (Not that I have any reason to doubt that you do.)
” … studies do show that African-American and Latina girls have both higher weights and higher self-esteem, on average, than white girls.”
Higher weights? Generally, yes. Those same studies tend to show that “white” girls have higher weights than Asian girls. To a certain extent that has something to do with relative bone and muscle density, which, for reasons neurophysiologists can doubtless explain better than I, apparently has something to do with “racial” genetics.
However, I don’t know when you last did any research on the self-esteem issue, but you may find that your studies — particularly when economic and some geographic data and interviews are added into the mix — are somewhat outdated. The more tightly a girl or woman and her surrounding environs tend to hew to the media-approved WASP/Western upper-middle-class feminine aesthetic as the image to which girls/women “should” aspire, the worse that female’s self-image is likely to be (unless she’s doing some very active and conscious resisting, and/or is an athlete who is not a gymnast or figure skater).
FUCK! Littlem, I just wrote a really long response to this and, as has been happening lately, lost it.
Condensed version: I’m really sorry that came across so wrong. I wasn’t trying to discount the experiences of anyone who’s not black, white, or hispanic–just trying to say I had some idea of where Meowzer’s “especially a white one” comment might have been coming from. (In that context, your racial make-up was irrelevant to me.)
I’ve read about African-American and Latina girls having higher self-esteem in a couple of places–the only one I know for sure off the top of my head is The Obesity Myth. Campos talks about it in the context of government initiatives to teach teenaged girls to hate their bodies more, because those populations aren’t dieting enough for their tastes.
But I’ve also read the argument you’re talking about–that body hatred is proportionate to exposure to western, upper-middle-class values–and that certainly doesn’t only affect white girls. That’s why I said in the first comment, and will reiterate here, that I’m really not worried about ANY girl in this culture having too healthy a body image.
I’ll also totally grant that the studies I’m referring to might actually tell us more about class and/or geography than race–but I read them in the context of race, so that’s where I was coming from.
As for the “white people’s attitudes” thing, I can’t speak for Meowzer, but I was speaking anecdotally–and furthermore speaking about what white people say among themselves, in my experience, not how they treat people of color. So the point may be completely irrelevant both scientifically and socially, but I was pretty much just saying to Meowzer, yeah, I’ve observed the same thing–and I think what underlies it is fairly nasty.
Does that clarify things? Thanks for keeping me honest.