Liza, I think where you’re getting hung up is on the difference between being aware that you have privilege and being conscious of all the subtle ways in which it works.

I’m aware that I have privilege, and I was aware of it when I wrote this post. But part of privilege is the luxury of not seeing all the ways in which it benefits you. Have you read “Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack”? The list of daily effects of white privilege there was a huge eye-opener for me, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. (If you have read it, sorry to repeat — but I’ve read it a gazillion times, and obviously, I still fuck up.)

That’s what people are getting at when they talk about white privilege — the things we can’t see without really thinking about it, and often don’t see even if we do. There’s nothing wrong or inherently racist about not noticing those things — the entire culture is set up to make us not notice. But that’s why we need to listen and think about it when the effects of privilege are pointed out to us.

I think the more frustrating thing about the entire episode (at the bar) is the fact that people are so completely close-minded (regarding race, gender, economic status,etc) that they cannot understand how or why they are offending others. I have overheard many disturbing comments, and regardless of whether they affect me personally or not, I get pretty angry. The question is, do you say something or not? I can’t seem to keep my mouth shut. I got kicked out of an all-white party (and yes, I am white too) once because I yelled at people for using the N word. And no, I didn’t use “I have many friends that are black” as an argument. I instead told them the history of the word, and the power that words can have. Did I change their minds? No. But I didn’t want to hear that shit from their mouths, and I said so.

Hmm..I seem to be rambling at this point, so I’ll cease and desist. I guess my point, after reading this post & all the comments is this: I believe in standing up to ignorant people, regardless of what vitriol is coming out of their mouth. Just be prepared for the consequences.

emilymorgan – By being unaware of it, I mean people who think something isn’t really going on or it isn’t really that bad because it isn’t happening to them or they don’t see it. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. I guess it’s more being unaware and/or being aware but not giving a shit.

Cindy – Yeah. Though I don’t know that it always has to be embarrassment or conflict. At least not our own. I think you can realize where your own privileges are by observing how you and others are treated. I go to a predominantly black school, and just hearing what people say in class has made me realize a lot. But I agree that something embarrassing can make you realize it really fast.

If I say, hey, they put a gay (or ethnic minority, or disabled, or whatever) main character in X movie without making him buy into the normal stereotypes and I think that’s cool, there are actually some that would say I’m parading my straight (white, abled, etc) privilege around because, well, maybe it seems cool, but really I should be angry that it didn’t happen sooner. And yeah, I’ve heard people say shit like that.

I mean, I can’t change the SES I grew up in, my skin color, my orientation, or my abilities. But I’m aware of how they may affect the way some people treat me, and I hope I never get any major preferential treatment for them (ex, I would never want to be hired over someone else because of my race).

I guess mainly it’s a question/concern over where people sometimes draw the line between regular awareness of an issue and what they perceive as condescending or privileged. Sorry if I got ranty that wasn’t clear.

You and I are a lot alike.

Sometimes, we have to be taught about the consequences of privilege through embarassment and a little pain. I’m talking about conflict.

I think what I’m getting at here is that, yes, you can be aware of your privilege and still smack somebody upside the head with it. Privilege isn’t a fixed point. It’s a system. What do you do when you’ve fouled up? Atone? Be a little more watchful?

I don’t know. What I’m trying to do is let people feel what they feel. If I piss them off, I own my actions and reach out to the person I hurt. I don’t expect them to act in a certain way, I just want them to know that I’m trying to live differently, and if they can stick with me and my boneheaded assumptions and behaviors.

For what’s it’s worth, I find myself wondering if Kate’s conclusion was more inartful than ignorant.

But I suppose I shouldn’t assign intentions where they mightn’t exist.

Maybe I’m not understanding your point, but I think it can be really problematic whether or not you’re aware of it.

uh, what? that isn’t the issue at all. also, no one would “accuse” you of being privileged, because it’s not an accusation, it’s a fact.

it doesn’t sound to me like you really get it at all.

I can also see how the particular wording of the end of this post could be interpreted that way, though I think it may have come out differently than it was intended. Or at least I’m reading it that way.

What I don’t get (and this is inspired by places independent of this particular post) is where the line suddenly seems to blur from helpful ally to a group and someone parading their “privilege” around. It seems any time anyone who isn’t a member of an oppressed group mentions the oppression against said group, they are accused of parading their privilege. It’s particularly bad if you try to note something that is a slight improvement over previous oppression.

OK, I get it. I’m white and won’t personally have to deal with racism. I’m from an upper-middle-class upbringing, so I don’t fully understand going without. I’m abled, so I don’t personally experience ableism. I’m straight so I don’t meet the wrath of homophobes. And so on.

Do people really think I don’t know all of this? Or that I can’t care about (and discuss) the above issues because I am not personally on the receiving end of oppression?

It’s really annoying that you can’t voice concern about an issue without being accused of privilege. And it’s potentially alienating the groups or people doing the accusing from outside allies.

I know I’ll probably get flamed for saying that. I’m sure someone will accuse me of being privileged. I don’t care.

And banned again!

There is not enough “Fuck off!” in the world for guys like this.